KVR Audio

Robmobius · Post by **Robmobius** » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:42 am

I have both... They are both very cool.

That said, I'm using SD3 for everything now these days.

Thorinn01 · Post by **Thorinn01** » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:45 am

It’s easier to create mono tracks in your DAW with BFD3. SD3 defaults to stereo. If you have any real engineering experience you will know you do not want to mix individual drum tracks in stereo. This is a whole other discussion and is based on the physics of mono verses stereo signals and how theses signals interact with other electronic or acoustic signals in a mix. Completely different discussion.

Thorinn01 · Post by **Thorinn01** » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:47 am

That being said, if working mainly inside the box I’ll use SD3, routing to actual analogue outboard and back I use BFD3. It all depends on your work flow

noiseboyuk · Post by **noiseboyuk** » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:47 pm

Thorinn01 wrote: Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:45 am It’s easier to create mono tracks in your DAW with BFD3. SD3 defaults to stereo. If you have any real engineering experience you will know you do not want to mix individual drum tracks in stereo. This is a whole other discussion and is based on the physics of mono verses stereo signals and how theses signals interact with other electronic or acoustic signals in a mix. Completely different discussion.

A completely different, and utterly absurd, discussion.

The stuff you read on forums...

LoopyFruit · Post by **LoopyFruit** » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:52 pm

I'm looking forward to the next version of BFD that they are working on, I just love the sound, more than SD.

If I ever had to sell one it would be SD.

twitewhite · Post by **twitewhite** » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:42 am

I'm a proud BFD3 owner so maybe I'm biased, but this is what I've generally noticed.

It seems that drummers tend to prefer BFD but non-drummers tend to prefer Superior. I think it might have something to do with BFD kits generally being less processed and therefore more similar to what drummers hear when they play their actual kit and SD kits by default sounding more similar to the processed drums that listeners generally hear. I know you can add processing to BFD and remove it from SD, but for some reason BFD is more associated with the dry natural drum sound. Also, BFD tends to be associated with softer styles whereas SD seems to be preferred by metalheads.

noiseboyuk · Post by **noiseboyuk** » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:45 am

I too may be biased as an SD3 onswer, but I don’t see the above generalities as correct. As I understand it, it’s is EZD that has the processed samples, while the SD series is dry by default. It could be argued these days that the distinction is moot since included presets mean that processed or unproceesed options are both available.

Like so many of these threads, I suspect the best answer is that both products are excellent. While there are of course differences both sonic and in workflow, neither makes for a clear winner for all in all cases, especially when expansions are included in the analysis, but that’s testimony to both products really. I don’t know BFD very well at all, but I’m not sure if it has an equivalent to the miracle that is Tap 2 Find.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:49 pm

I have a number of expansions for BFD. It's horses for courses. If you want to process it there are some tools in it, from 2 on particularly which are well suited to make a big sound out of it. There is a Joe Baresi Evil Drums kit, Glamoflage, which is amped up for hard rock.

I don't do metal or even know what the drums are supposed to do really but I know from making something louder.

Probably nothing like Tap 2 Find. I have never used other people's MIDI but if you do that's a thing.

As to real engineers know you can only use mono, the absurdity of that locates in the fact of the typical overhead for cymbals is a stereo pair, cardioid X/Y pair, known for eons and well-leveraged in BFD2 and 3. So you would not take the overheads output to mono, it makes no sense. Personally I take all the drums out as mono but in VE Pro which hasn't a mono channel but I power-pan them down to a super-narrow field typically.

"individual drum tracks", one supposes you mean channels, and there isn't really such individuality in a drum kit in nature, there is all sorts of bleed, there is all kind of snare in all the drums if they're on, there is no hard separation even between the close mics and the overheads, so for a premise behind an argument that's fatally flawed.

I find if I do not exploit the possibilities of BFD well, it's flat and fake, the whole thing of mixing drums to be convincing seems to be holistic; so the toms resonance modeling has been a boon here. Also the new macros approach to mixing, where you have a full-on sort of thing vs a clean or drier thing you may crossfade... and all this.

I don't know about the other product at all, but apparently it does't have the cymbal swell or the toms modeling. So for it to be objectively better, I said no.

Ploki · Post by **Ploki** » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:53 pm

holy f**king hell, i love BFD3, i think it sounds better than superior, but its so f**king terribly programmed.
it lags so badly on retina displays its practically unusable... GAH.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:56 pm

jancivil wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:49 pmI don't know about the other product at all, but apparently it does't have the cymbal swell or the toms modeling.

SD3 does have cymbal swell thing. It's actually available on all kitpieces, not just cymbals.

Basically it detects how fast the notes are played and for successive triggers increases the attack time. Quite smart, and it works great.

Ploki · Post by **Ploki** » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:04 am

The only thing of SD i like is the Roots expansion. That thing is -amazing-, i love it, one of the best sounding sampled drums hands down.

no other kits from toontrack come close, literally all other sound plasticky in comparison

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:06 am

I guess it depends what sort of sound you're after. SD3's factory kits sound exquisite to me. Well, mr. Massenberg knows his job very well, after all.

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:16 am

I just googled this and found we've already had this exact same argument here.
refer: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=491140&start=15

"BFD3's cymbal swell function offers several models of cymbal wash behaviour. It intelligently shapes cymbal articulations when played in frequent succession to emulate the buildup of energy when playing a real cymbal." - BFD3 FAQ

CF: "Smoothing (previously known as MHE) ensures that the attack of the stick is appropriately blended in when repeatedly hitting a cymbal (as it is in real life when you strike a cymbal multiple times in a row).

Smoothing is not only a smart feature, it is also configurable and flexible [...]

Dragging the slider to the right will increase the amount of Smoothing that is present for the selected instrument. For drums its default position is off, and for Cymbals the default positions were determined by the sound designer as part of the build of the given sound library." - SD3 manual

jancivil · Post by **jancivil** » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:21 am

It could be modeling, but they aren't saying so.

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:54 am

How else would you shape samples ("cymbal articulations") if not with an envelope? Surely they aren't using FM on it, and I'm doubtful they're using additive synthesis or resynthesis on those samples.

is Superior Drummer better than BFD3?