Lamentation - 4 Part Chorale (SATB)

[thomekk]

I'm happy when I don't have to complain about stuff and can enjoy : )

I need to take this approach on board. As a composition teacher for the last 30 years, I get the urge to analyse and help people improve...it's NOT always appreciated and I need to target such comments a little more carefully! I always try and phrase my feedback constructively, but I've had some extraordinarily abusive reactions in recent weeks!

What I need to remember on forums like this is that sometimes people just don't want to hear how they could improve; they just want to hear 'great' things about their music. I'm learning to 'read between the lines' and just ignore the small-minded, defensive,minority.

Hopefully you did not get me wrong here

A counterquestion comes to mind:
Would it be better then, if nothing is to criticize and the thread opener is asking for critical feedback, to shut up / write nothing? I don't think you meant it like this, but this comes up for me.

Another not so small issue this brings up is for me:
Does the composer/producer for himself thinks that his work is finished?
Then of course feedback / impressions can be desired though (which not means necessarily that only positive "hooray" answers are expected or have to be). This just means eventually that for the creator the process of creating is done (one has to find a stop on their own - if you don't have a real "customer" on the other side of course, which is not the case in forums) .

So this eg. was the case with my album (where I'm thankful you commented on). If a "product" is completed after lots of hours/months of work (where it's time to set an endpoint, which may be - without a client, which is for lots of music all around still the case - simply necessary) then there is a point where no improvements can get in anymore. But critic of course, which can help for further work.

The interwebs support on the other hand endless improvement possibilities via threads, where people ask what and how to improve at parts - and this is naturally a good opportunity, which wasn't there before in the earlier decades. I think lots of people here and elsewhere make use of this in a sucessful manner, so that's a more "forum"-customerfriendly way. But here it is all the more important to find a endpoint - but that will have a huge variety of attitudes how to handle.

For myself I guess most of any comments can be helpful (sometimes with a grain of salt)

[ChamMusic]

I'm happy when I don't have to complain about stuff and can enjoy : )

I need to take this approach on board. As a composition teacher for the last 30 years, I get the urge to analyse and help people improve...it's NOT always appreciated and I need to target such comments a little more carefully! I always try and phrase my feedback constructively, but I've had some extraordinarily abusive reactions in recent weeks!

What I need to remember on forums like this is that sometimes people just don't want to hear how they could improve; they just want to hear 'great' things about their music. I'm learning to 'read between the lines' and just ignore the small-minded, defensive,minority.

Hopefully you did not get me wrong here

A counterquestion comes to mind:
Would it be better then, if nothing is to criticize and the thread opener is asking for critical feedback, to shut up / write nothing? I don't think you meant it like this, but this comes up for me.

Another not so small issue this brings up is for me:
Does the composer/producer for himself thinks that his work is finished?
Then of course feedback / impressions can be desired though (which not means necessarily that only positive "hooray" answers are expected or have to be). This just means eventually that for the creator the process of creating is done (one has to find a stop on their own - if you don't have a real "customer" on the other side of course, which is not the case in forums) .

So this eg. was the case with my album (where I'm thankful you commented on). If a "product" is completed after lots of hours/months of work (where it's time to set an endpoint, which may be - without a client, which is for lots of music all around still the case - simply necessary) then there is a point where no improvements can get in anymore. But critic of course, which can help for further work.

The interwebs support on the other hand endless improvement possibilities via threads, where people ask what and how to improve at parts - and this is naturally a good opportunity, which wasn't there before in the earlier decades. I think lots of people here and elsewhere make use of this in a sucessful manner, so that's a more "forum"-customerfriendly way. But here it is all the more important to find a endpoint - but that will have a huge variety of attitudes how to handle.

For myself I guess most of any comments can be helpful (sometimes with a grain of salt)

No I'm not taking it the wrong way at all! :0)

to shut up / write nothing? yep, that is what I am going to do a lot more of!

A big part of the problem is that it can be very difficult to read exactly why people have posted from words alone...I'm just going to play it a lot safer and opt out far more. It's taking up too much time anyway! :0)

With students in a classroom, I can see them, hear them and read their body language / facial expressions. I get to know them quickly as individuals and know exactly how to phrase feedback so that it's as effective as possible.

For myself I guess most of any comments can be helpful That's my default standpoint with my music + I, (like you, I suspect), have enough self-esteem to cope with criticism.

I'm always amazed when a very small, little suggestion, very positively phrased, can cause a huge eruption of frothing, poisonous bile in response.

Simple answer, as you say, don't give them the feedback in the first place! Better for me as well...more time to compose!

[wagtunes]

I'm happy when I don't have to complain about stuff and can enjoy : )

I need to take this approach on board. As a composition teacher for the last 30 years, I get the urge to analyse and help people improve...it's NOT always appreciated and I need to target such comments a little more carefully! I always try and phrase my feedback constructively, but I've had some extraordinarily abusive reactions in recent weeks!

What I need to remember on forums like this is that sometimes people just don't want to hear how they could improve; they just want to hear 'great' things about their music. I'm learning to 'read between the lines' and just ignore the small-minded, defensive,minority.

Hopefully you did not get me wrong here

A counterquestion comes to mind:
Would it be better then, if nothing is to criticize and the thread opener is asking for critical feedback, to shut up / write nothing? I don't think you meant it like this, but this comes up for me.

Another not so small issue this brings up is for me:
Does the composer/producer for himself thinks that his work is finished?
Then of course feedback / impressions can be desired though (which not means necessarily that only positive "hooray" answers are expected or have to be). This just means eventually that for the creator the process of creating is done (one has to find a stop on their own - if you don't have a real "customer" on the other side of course, which is not the case in forums) .

So this eg. was the case with my album (where I'm thankful you commented on). If a "product" is completed after lots of hours/months of work (where it's time to set an endpoint, which may be - without a client, which is for lots of music all around still the case - simply necessary) then there is a point where no improvements can get in anymore. But critic of course, which can help for further work.

The interwebs support on the other hand endless improvement possibilities via threads, where people ask what and how to improve at parts - and this is naturally a good opportunity, which wasn't there before in the earlier decades. I think lots of people here and elsewhere make use of this in a sucessful manner, so that's a more "forum"-customerfriendly way. But here it is all the more important to find a endpoint - but that will have a huge variety of attitudes how to handle.

For myself I guess most of any comments can be helpful (sometimes with a grain of salt)

No I'm not taking it the wrong way at all! :0)

to shut up / write nothing? yep, that is what I am going to do a lot more of!

A big part of the problem is that it can be very difficult to read exactly why people have posted from words alone...I'm just going to play it a lot safer and opt out far more. It's taking up too much time anyway! :0)

With students in a classroom, I can see them, hear them and read their body language / facial expressions. I get to know them quickly as individuals and know exactly how to phrase feedback so that it's as effective as possible.

For myself I guess most of any comments can be helpful That's my default standpoint with my music + I, (like you, I suspect), have enough self-esteem to cope with criticism.

I'm always amazed when a very small, little suggestion, very positively phrased, can cause a huge eruption of frothing, poisonous bile in response.

Simple answer, as you say, don't give them the feedback in the first place! Better for me as well...more time to compose!

I was fortunate enough to have known personally the guy who discovered Bon Jovi. We had an interesting conversation one day about musical criticism and why people react the way they do.

He said, and I'll never forget his exact words, "Their music is like their children and it's impossible for them to admit to themselves that their children have cancer."

When you criticize somebody's music, it's like telling them that their child has cancer. Not everybody is like that, but many are. I'm one of them. I have a hard time taking criticism, which I think is obvious. Strangely, I've received so much of it over the course of 40 plus years of writing that you'd think I'd be used to it by now. Sure, I'm better than I was, but I still don't like hearing that my child has cancer. It's the worst feeling. And the closer you are to your music, the more it means to you and the more it hurts when you get the bad news.

The gentleman's name is Steve Zuckerman. Maybe you'll find him listed somewhere in Bon Jovi historical writings. I'm not sure. But he was very wise. Everybody thinks their song is going to be a big hit, myself included. Very few are insightful enough to be able to look at their own music and say "Man this stinks."

It's the main reason I finally decided to just get out of the business altogether. While I may have had a hard time taking criticism, I was at least intelligent enough to realize that I'd never be good enough and was just wasting my time. Now I spend that time writing, essentially for myself.

I'm getting better at listening to my music and going, "Man this stinks."

[vurt]

I need to take this approach on board.

please don't ever feel that way about any of my offerings. sometimes i may disagree with your suggestions, but id do it respectfully and actually enjoy discussing the options and explaining why a certain choice might not work for "me" and such.

it doesn't mean i won't store that information and maybe use/abuse it in a future composition though

the internet for me is about sharing ideas and discussing them. that's how we evolve

[wagtunes]

I need to take this approach on board.

please don't ever feel that way about any of my offerings. sometimes i may disagree with your suggestions, but id do it respectfully and actually enjoy discussing the options and explaining why a certain choice might not work for "me" and such.

it doesn't mean i won't store that information and maybe use/abuse it in a future composition though

the internet for me is about sharing ideas and discussing them. that's how we evolve

Agree. As stubborn as I am, my biggest breakthroughs ONLY came when I finally listened to some of the advice that was given me. You would think that lesson alone would make me more open to criticism.

Some of us are just really thick headed.

[ChamMusic]

I'm happy when I don't have to complain about stuff and can enjoy : )

I need to take this approach on board. As a composition teacher for the last 30 years, I get the urge to analyse and help people improve...it's NOT always appreciated and I need to target such comments a little more carefully! I always try and phrase my feedback constructively, but I've had some extraordinarily abusive reactions in recent weeks!

What I need to remember on forums like this is that sometimes people just don't want to hear how they could improve; they just want to hear 'great' things about their music. I'm learning to 'read between the lines' and just ignore the small-minded, defensive,minority.

Hopefully you did not get me wrong here

A counterquestion comes to mind:
Would it be better then, if nothing is to criticize and the thread opener is asking for critical feedback, to shut up / write nothing? I don't think you meant it like this, but this comes up for me.

Another not so small issue this brings up is for me:
Does the composer/producer for himself thinks that his work is finished?
Then of course feedback / impressions can be desired though (which not means necessarily that only positive "hooray" answers are expected or have to be). This just means eventually that for the creator the process of creating is done (one has to find a stop on their own - if you don't have a real "customer" on the other side of course, which is not the case in forums) .

So this eg. was the case with my album (where I'm thankful you commented on). If a "product" is completed after lots of hours/months of work (where it's time to set an endpoint, which may be - without a client, which is for lots of music all around still the case - simply necessary) then there is a point where no improvements can get in anymore. But critic of course, which can help for further work.

The interwebs support on the other hand endless improvement possibilities via threads, where people ask what and how to improve at parts - and this is naturally a good opportunity, which wasn't there before in the earlier decades. I think lots of people here and elsewhere make use of this in a sucessful manner, so that's a more "forum"-customerfriendly way. But here it is all the more important to find a endpoint - but that will have a huge variety of attitudes how to handle.

For myself I guess most of any comments can be helpful (sometimes with a grain of salt)

No I'm not taking it the wrong way at all! :0)

to shut up / write nothing? yep, that is what I am going to do a lot more of!

A big part of the problem is that it can be very difficult to read exactly why people have posted from words alone...I'm just going to play it a lot safer and opt out far more. It's taking up too much time anyway! :0)

With students in a classroom, I can see them, hear them and read their body language / facial expressions. I get to know them quickly as individuals and know exactly how to phrase feedback so that it's as effective as possible.

For myself I guess most of any comments can be helpful That's my default standpoint with my music + I, (like you, I suspect), have enough self-esteem to cope with criticism.

I'm always amazed when a very small, little suggestion, very positively phrased, can cause a huge eruption of frothing, poisonous bile in response.

Simple answer, as you say, don't give them the feedback in the first place! Better for me as well...more time to compose!

I was fortunate enough to have known personally the guy who discovered Bon Jovi. We had an interesting conversation one day about musical criticism and why people react the way they do.

He said, and I'll never forget his exact words, "Their music is like their children and it's impossible for them to admit to themselves that their children have cancer."

When you criticize somebody's music, it's like telling them that their child has cancer. Not everybody is like that, but many are. I'm one of them. I have a hard time taking criticism, which I think is obvious. Strangely, I've received so much of it over the course of 40 plus years of writing that you'd think I'd be used to it by now. Sure, I'm better than I was, but I still don't like hearing that my child has cancer. It's the worst feeling. And the closer you are to your music, the more it means to you and the more it hurts when you get the bad news.

The gentleman's name is Steve Zuckerman. Maybe you'll find him listed somewhere in Bon Jovi historical writings. I'm not sure. But he was very wise. Everybody thinks their song is going to be a big hit, myself included. Very few are insightful enough to be able to look at their own music and say "Man this stinks."

It's the main reason I finally decided to just get out of the business altogether. While I may have had a hard time taking criticism, I was at least intelligent enough to realize that I'd never be good enough and was just wasting my time. Now I spend that time writing, essentially for myself.

I'm getting better at listening to my music and going, "Man this stinks."

the closer you are to your music, the more it means to you and the more it hurts when you get the bad news.

There is truth in that, but everyone just has to find their own way of dealing with it if they're creating music, especially if it's professionally.

I'm utterly passionate about music - creating it / performing it...have been since I was 7 years old, but I've learnt to be dispassionate about what others think about it.

I usually just calmly accept the message...analyse it for any useful suggestions (not always there)....move forward and hopefully improve my music.

There are times when I think the reaction to a piece of mine is utterly wrong and then I will discuss the comments if I think it's appropriate...as I've done with this piece, but I've just learnt to always stay calm about it.

Early on KVR I was taken aback by the high level of useful feedback I was getting, (much better than other forums) - the main reason I've stayed so long...

Examples (there are others):

Layzer - with his tips regarding reverb and compression definitely helped my 'sound'.

Frantz - making it very clear that I sometimes let my music get too busy...I disagreed at first, but actually he was correct and I do have a tendency to over - complicate...I ALWAYS keep that in mind now.

What still does really piss me off is the aggressive reaction to my feedback on the music of others...I suppose because I don't do that myself, but, as I said above, I'm going to deal with that by targetting more carefully / simply staying silent more often!

But you're right, everything I've just said is all very well, but it can be very hard to put into practice! :0)

Now, if something on here annoys me, I usually just walk away from the computer and let it settle in my head. I then either come to the conclusion that it doesn't really matter or I write a, hopefully, considered reply! :0)

Last few weeks I've not been as good as I should've been about ignoring idiots who attack me for giving them advice...but I will get better again! :0)

It's always going to be that way...it's often a solo occupation is composing and it's quite hard to stay objective.

Of course what you have to remember about the music industry is that there is a lot of luck involved in who makes it and who doesn't...it's never, ever been just about talent / ability at all....

The Beatles were rejected many, many times and were on the verge of splitting up when they were finally 'discovered' and given a chance. Without any doubt there are many other 'Beatles' out there who just didn't get that lucky break.

As for your music - don't knock it...from what I've heard, it's just as catchy and appealing at its best as plenty of big pop hits...better than some of them, without a doubt.

[ChamMusic]

I need to take this approach on board.

please don't ever feel that way about any of my offerings. sometimes i may disagree with your suggestions, but id do it respectfully and actually enjoy discussing the options and explaining why a certain choice might not work for "me" and such.

it doesn't mean i won't store that information and maybe use/abuse it in a future composition though

the internet for me is about sharing ideas and discussing them. that's how we evolve

That's pretty much my attitude as well on my music....just wish I'd been as concise in saying so as you were! :0)

[wagtunes]

As for your music - don't knock it...from what I've heard, it's just as catchy and appealing at its best as plenty of big pop hits...better than some of them, without a doubt.

One of the nicest things anybody has ever said to me.

Can't say more than that.

But I can recognize real talent when I hear it.

I'll leave it at that.

[vurt]

. [

But I can recognize real talent when I hear it..

aww look you've gone and made me blush now

[wagtunes]

. [

But I can recognize real talent when I hear it..

aww look you've gone and made me blush now

I know that was meant to be humorous, but don't knock yourself. It takes real talent to put together a working modular system. Not everybody can do it.

[jancivil]

POODLE

the poodle bites
the poodle chews it
come on, Frenchy
the poodle bites
the poodle chews it
not a speck of cereal
the poodle bites
the poodle chews it
nothin' but the best for mah dawg

Somehow missed this earlier!

As a poem it's a bit woof around the edges! :0)

Give me
some dirty love
just like your mama make her nasty poodle do
Give me
some dirty love
just like your mama make that nasty poodle chew



since the thread has already gone south

[ChamMusic]

POODLE

the poodle bites
the poodle chews it
come on, Frenchy
the poodle bites
the poodle chews it
not a speck of cereal
the poodle bites
the poodle chews it
nothin' but the best for mah dawg

Somehow missed this earlier!

As a poem it's a bit woof around the edges! :0)

Give me
some dirty love
just like your mama make her nasty poodle do
Give me
some dirty love
just like your mama make that nasty poodle chew



since the thread has already gone south

Zappa...should've remembered that one! Knew I recognized it!

[jancivil]

so, at the end of the day was 'needs more cowbell' or 'needs more C E G' the more helpful

[vurt]

so, at the end of the day was 'needs more cowbell'

it was just a joke because there was nothing at all to criticize

[ChamMusic]

so, at the end of the day was 'needs more cowbell' or 'needs more C E G' the more helpful

vurt made me laugh with that one, (which is what I think he intended)....which is always useful! :0)

I also spent about 2 hours trying to tie together a Vocaloid choir, cowbell, 909 kick and Moog bass into a short piece...got it started, but then had to do some paid work! :0) Maybe one day soon I'll try and finish it off...it was a great 2 hours either way.