Host rumors.....

[christianmusicmaker]

What else will Sonar 4 and SX3 offer? Sonar will probably get surround and a new collection of 3rd party plugs.

Instead or as well as the Sonitus fx: Suite & Lexicon?

I think only Cakewalk can answer that although the Lexicon has had a very cool reception from the Sonar community so it may or may not make Sonar 4. Only Cakewalk can answer that. As for the Sonitus plugs it would be very odd to fully integrate the Sonitus EQ into Sonar 3 Producer only to take it out in Sonar 4 so I would have thought the Sonitus FX would stay, but we shall have to wait and see.

Does Sonar have Freeze yet?

Not yet.

Is it true that Sonar can only ReWire 16 tracks of Reason, instead of the full 64 audio outs that Tracktion can handle?!

I have certainly heard of this limitation but as I do not use Reason 2.5 very much I cannot confirm it.

Does Sonar have PDC for VST plugs yet (as I know it does for DX)?

From the Cakewalk site...

"Full plug-in delay compensation across signal path"

From what I have gathered since I have used Sonar it does provide PDC for VST plugs through the VST adapter or wrapper.

Can Sonar render at 32-bit?

Not yet (Tracktion clearly does)but I would be very surprised if Sonar 4 ships without this feature.

Better Freeze functions - it only Freezes instruments, and not effects at present!

It seems Tracktion has a bit of a head start on the competiton in this area. I can't remember where I read it but someone said Jules added a wrote / developed the freeze function for Tracktion in a few day's! Care to confirm this Jules?

I can't imagine ever going back to lack of PDC - you can stick all that bouncing down stuff! And lack of Freeze seriously inhibits a host IMHO - you run out of CPU grunt before you get to the mastering phase in the proceedings.

The two reasons why I am not upgrading my copy of Live 3.But Live 5 well...that is another discussion

So on a PC laptop, I think Tracktion 1.6.x is already the best bet, having full freeze and PDC.

It seems crazy when you look at the price tag but if anyone really must have those features then £50 will get them for you in Tracktion.

The way the "big 3" seem to be responding is by justifying their high cost by bundling more expensive pluggins. Sonar started it with the Lexicon and Sonitus FX. Logic took the bait with their Pro 6 bundle, and now Cubase SXXX are following suit. Mackie have now taken the rug from under their feet yet again with the inclusion of FinalMix, by saying that expensive plugs CAN be added without justifying a £400+ price tag.

Good points there...Final mix is a very full featured mastering plug that is a great addition to Tracktion..it needed a big native plug to really add to it's features.I think the rest of the Acuma plugs will likely appear in T2.

I agree with you that the barman is calling "time" on the "big 3" (ahem...) and that they have driven themselves to the end of one road just at a time when many musicians are turning to software solutions that are taking an altogether route...

Lets see how they respond one thing is certain they will in one way or another.

[Karbon L. Forms]

cmm: "Care to confirm this Jules?"

Shhhhhh. He's busy.

[headquest]

cmm: "Care to confirm this Jules?"

Shhhhhh. He's busy.

So here's the thing...


Sonar 4 needs -
1. VST without a wrapper
2. Freeze function
3. 32-bit output
4. Superior ReWire
5. Video support (or does it have this?)
6. Surround Sound encoder

Cubase 3 needs -
1. Effects Freeze
2. A decent Sampler!
3. Way better "bread & butter" effects
4. "Groove Clips" of some kind
5. Better synths (although I've not heard the recent additions - perhaps they make up for this already?)

Plenty of mileage for the developers yet, then.

[christianmusicmaker]

5. Video support (or does it have this?)

Snippets from the Sonar Manual on video, there is much more but just to answer your *next* likely question which would likely have been "what sort of video support"...just kidding

Film and Video Scoring and Production

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SONAR has many of the tools you need to execute audio post-production projects quickly and efficiently. SONAR provides chase lock sync to time code for frame-by-frame accuracy when synchronizing audio or MIDI to film or video.

Or, you can turn chase lock off to conserve CPU power. SONAR provides high-quality time stretching and sample-accurate editing with zero-crossing detection so you can make the fine adjustments you need in record time. In addition, SONAR's support for video files gives you convenient synchronized access to digitized video, making film and video scoring easier than ever.

So the answer is yes it does support video. But I would use Avid (digidesign,Protools,M-audio) or maybe Vegas 5 for video anyway.But that's just me

[lowkey]

Its possible to Freeze in Sonar. They call it "Bounce to track" and they have had it since version 1. Like alot of things in Sonar it takes a few button presses to do it but its very flexible. If Cakewalk implemented a macro recorder/player (something Cakewalk products used to have) they could have the best freeze out there. A user called Maric made a macro to freeze using a program he made. It loads up as a MFX and automates the steps.

The thing about Sonar is there are alot of very good ideas surrounded by alot of menu's and key presses. I still use Sonar for some things because it does have nice tools but I could not use it to compose music because its very labour intensive for things that should be simple. Freeze is a case in point for this.

[christianmusicmaker]

Its possible to Freeze in Sonar. They call it "Bounce to track" and they have had it since version 1.

Indeed Lowkey...I have used this myself but it is not a dedicated freeze feature like Tracktion's, hopefully Cakewalk will add this feature to Sonar 4.

I am certainly interested in Maric's mfx plug (I missed that one) I'll have to do a search on the Sonar forum.

Thanks for the tip.

[jens]

I can't remember where I read it but someone said Jules added a wrote / developed the freeze function for Tracktion in a few day's!

Well, then he should have taken a few days more.

[Wopelka]

Is it true that Sonar can only ReWire 16 tracks of Reason, instead of the full 64 audio outs that Tracktion can handle?!

I have certainly heard of this limitation but as I do not use Reason 2.5 very much I cannot confirm it.

the good answer was:

Due to the way ReWire has been implemented in Sonar, a maximum of 16 Reason MIDI outputs are available. This means that only the first 16 Reason devices - in the order they were created - will be available on Sonar's MIDI Output menu.

entire article.

[Shazbot]

It cannot be done simply by stripping down some features then publish a "light" version, that's the mistake those big names have made, and continue to make. So, strategically speaking, Cakewalk are doing the right thing

Oh yes, you are right - they haven't got any 'light'-versions of Sonar

Well, you're probably joking, but in case you're serious I would say they do have two "lite" versions of Sonar - Home Studio and Guitar Tracks Pro. I was an avid user of Guitar Tracks Pro and much preferred its setup and functionality to when I bought (and returned) Sonar 2. But the latest version, Guitar Tracks Pro 3, seems very much designed to be exactly like Sonar without the MIDI and other extraneous functions. Having gotten much more into MIDI and VSTis and the like, I wondered, "why don't I just get Sonar 3"? So I did.

I have both Sonar 3 and Tracktion now and love them both. I think Sonar 3 still outranks Tracktion for what it is capable of doing (not that anyone really doubts that, eh?), but sometimes I just find Tracktion cooler to work with, especially for more basic projects and for general messing around.

I am anticipating a very interesting battle for my $$ coming up between Sonar 4 and T2.

[lowkey]

The 16 (actully 15 because the router is counted as a midi source (!)) is bloody anoying. There are some good things though. Rewired ReDrums everything automaticly named in the piano roll. Everything from mutes to the names of the drums in the patch.

[jens]

It cannot be done simply by stripping down some features then publish a "light" version, that's the mistake those big names have made, and continue to make. So, strategically speaking, Cakewalk are doing the right thing

Oh yes, you are right - they haven't got any 'light'-versions of Sonar

Well, you're probably joking, but in case you're serious I would say they do have two "lite" versions of Sonar

I was being ironic - no other sequencer is sold in as many stripped down versions as Sonar:

- Sonar Producer
- Sonar Studio
- Guitar Tracks Pro
- Home Studio
- Home Studio XL
- Music Creator
- Plasma

[headquest]

I have both Sonar 3 and Tracktion now and love them both. I think Sonar 3 still outranks Tracktion for what it is capable of doing (not that anyone really doubts that, eh?)

well actually ... yes ...

I think that Freeze, native VST support with full automation (rather than the Sonar workarounds), 32-bit rendering (which is neat for those who master in Audition, etc) and proper ReWire implemetation for Reason are all important features that nowadays are absolutely to be expected in a Professional Windows-based sequencer.

I find it odd that Sonar falls down in all these areas when an inexpensive programme developed by just one guy can outperform it.

But that is the facts of the matter - at least until Sonar 4.

And I agree that Sonar DOES have some other veryh cool features...

[christianmusicmaker]

I was being ironic - no other sequencer is sold in as many stripped down versions as Sonar:

- Sonar Producer
- Sonar Studio
- Guitar Tracks Pro
- Home Studio
- Home Studio XL
- Music Creator
- Plasma

I think Guitar Tracks Pro 3 may be a good preview for the new look of Sonar 4

Sonar 4 new look?

[TheWall]

I was being ironic - no other sequencer is sold in as many stripped down versions as Sonar:

Errrr. I knew Cakewalk have LE versions of Sonar. I was saying, judging by P5/Kinetic, we can see their attempt to cope with the situation in a more clever way, as opposed to Steiny/Magix.

Again, it's still all about, IMHO, positioning. T1 isn't targeted at ppl with(or fancy of) tons of hardware or those who already have formed an opinion about "what's a professional sequencer". Without being bounded by the "professional" image, T1 is totally built for a different breed of users.

If T2 actually competes with Sonar/Logic/Cubase, it will have to meet those "professional" requirement and, even more crucial, the "professional" mindset.

Personally, I don't believe Mackie will turn T2 head-to-head with those big sequencers. It'd be a disaster. But who knows...

(Please note that surely T2 can be vastly improved upon T1, but that has nothing to do with its positioning.)

[Wopelka]

I think that Freeze, native VST support with full automation (rather than the Sonar workarounds), 32-bit rendering (which is neat for those who master in Audition, etc) and proper ReWire implemetation for Reason are all important features that nowadays are absolutely to be expected in a Professional Windows-based sequencer.

I find it odd that Sonar falls down in all these areas when an inexpensive programme developed by just one guy can outperform it.

don't mean to start a host war, but except for the 32bits rendering about which i've no clue, it'd be fair to notice that all the other features you mention are very well implemented in a way or another.

. Freeze = Bounce to Track
. native VST support => now the Adapter is included in the package and VST support works seamlessly
. Rewire implentation => don't know about Tracktion, but Sonar is known to have the better Rewire implentation among the big sequencers

As an intensive Sonar user i can assure you that the issues you're raising aren't issues at all.