goodby fellows

[braj]

Really, there isn't much difference IMO regarding complexity/speed.

Sorry man but thats BS. I just got back from a session with logic and even with all the screensets that supposedly make things go faster its still overly complex to do simple stuff. Powerful? Yes. But I refuse to read a 1000 page manual to learn how to sequence. I was up and running with Tracktion in 10 minutes. My friends been reading a Logic manual for the last six months and also he's enrolled in a logic class at school. Absurd.

But hay if you picked it up quickly, then more power to you. Have fun with L7.

Personally, my first month using Logic was a waste because I didn't 'get' it's UI conventions. Then one day, I opened it and I guess I was in the right frame of mind and it all clicked. I'll admit it can be confusing and a manual is necessary at times, but once it 'clicked' it became second nature to do what I need most of the time. There's plenty of mystery there still, but mostly that involves doing arcane stuff I don't need most of the time anyway. But recording audio and midi, editing midi, using synths and effects, automation, it's all really easy. I use two screen sets most of the time, one the default arrange view, the other the second default screen-set showing a small arrange view and the mixer. I personally find these very handy depending on the context.

Anyway, I'll be getting T2 to be my main DAW, so don't gripe at me for not having much trouble with Logic. All I can say is it isn't rocket science

[AD80]

All I can say is it isn't rocket science

No its not rocket science, its just an unintuitive sequencer. Actually I think I remember some of your posts when you were begining to use Logic. Maybe I'll do a search for those to prove my point .

Good to still have you on board tho. If you were able to make music with T1 then you'll be able to make more music with T2. Thats what its all about. And of course theres the 2.x updates coming.

[braj]

Again, it is more to do with understanding the UI conventions. I didn't like T the first time I tried it either

[AD80]

Again, it is more to do with understanding the UI conventions. I didn't like T the first time I tried it either

I'm not saying its "impossible" to learn. I'm just saying its conventions are unintuitive and more difficult to learn compared to other software. Especially compared to Tracktion. Although I've used Cubase, EXT, Live, Sonar, PT, and FL too. Still Logic is the king of unintuitiveness. I want to make music not flip through thousands fo pages of manuals to figure out how to do things right.

[braj]

Really, if you just use one of the default templates, you don't have to touch the environment usually. I had issues with stupid stuff like how to set up soft synths and confusing the application menus with the window menus. You could call it unintuitive but once I grasped how they intended it to function it was intuitive to me. Once you know how stuff is arranged, you can figure stuff out without the manual to a large degree. Just give Tracktion time and a larger userbase and I bet you'll at least see workgroups like 'Producing music with Tracktion2!' and book titles such as 'Tracktion Power'. Since Logic is an industry standard tool, it isn't surprising to see college courses so people can get 'certified' and be able to justify a salary.

Just a different paradigm. Tracktion has one, Logic has one, which one is superior is subjective. If Logic has more complexities, that sure isn't surprising since it is a deeper application. That's natural.

[jens]

remember that one track can hold overlapping (or simultaneous) clips and that clips can house filters and you see that it is not easy to run out of space.

nozt easy to run out of space?

what world do you live in?

Maybe it's not easy for you but you should appreciate that here are several users (me included) who finally 'run out of space' with every single f**king song!

[AD80]

Really, if you just use one of the default templates, you don't have to touch the environment usually. I had issues with stupid stuff like how to set up soft synths and confusing the application menus with the window menus. You could call it unintuitive but once I grasped how they intended it to function it was intuitive to me. Once you know how stuff is arranged, you can figure stuff out without the manual to a large degree. Just give Tracktion time and a larger userbase and I bet you'll at least see workgroups like 'Producing music with Tracktion2!' and book titles such as 'Tracktion Power'. Since Logic is an industry standard tool, it isn't surprising to see college courses so people can get 'certified' and be able to justify a salary.

Just a different paradigm. Tracktion has one, Logic has one, which one is superior is subjective. If Logic has more complexities, that sure isn't surprising since it is a deeper application. That's natural.

I do use the default templates. I use logic all the time when I go to other studios. I'm familiar with swtiching screen sets, and adjusting environments, and the Logic paradim. Its completely bassakwards and over cumbersom IMHO. Deep down I know you agree with me, dont fight it, just enjoy T2 in all its intuitive gloriousness.

[semiquaver]

nozt easy to run out of space?

what world do you live in?

Maybe it's not easy for you but you should appreciate that here are several users (me included) who finally 'run out of space' with every single f**king song!

fair enough - I suppose having a big monitor doesn't hurt, and there is nothing wrong with providing folder tracks for people who want them.

But there is something great about insisting that nothing be hidden or nested if its possible (a big if). One of the things that brought me to tracktion was being able to see all the clips and the signal chain on the screen at once (rather than say switching between mixer and track views) and so I prefer to see that design philosophy extended creatively to solve the space problem without resorting to hidden, nested material.

All that said maybe we can be civil here - I come here to learn about this program and to help provide feedback to the developers and support to my peers not for drama.

[braj]

I actually like Logic, believe it or not. Only thing is I can't use it on both a PC and Mac, and it's timestretch isn't perfect either (where have I heard THAT before ).

[pdxindy]

But there is something great about insisting that nothing be hidden or nested if its possible (a big if). One of the things that brought me to tracktion was being able to see all the clips and the signal chain on the screen at once (rather than say switching between mixer and track views) and so I prefer to see that design philosophy extended creatively to solve the space problem without resorting to hidden, nested material.

I do not see something great about anyone, especially a developer, insisting everyone do things a certain way. What I find great are developers who listen to what people want (people who are doing serious work and not just random requests cause they sound cool) and finding ways to give that without affecting useability.

Adding folder tracks in no way requires anyone to use them. Anyone can use no nested tracks. However, for people who have many many tracks and want to organize them better, something like a folder track is valuable.

I would like folder tracks. Not because I commonly use so many active tracks in a project, but because I like to try out ideas, mix them together, and from that build something. I would like to have folder tracks so I can have an 'idea' in a folder and open/close it, or disable it easily.

I also would like folder tracks for longer projects where I am putting together 30 minutes of continuous music. It will evolve quite a bit from beginning to end and here I could easily have a few dozens tracks, even when the music is not very complex at a given point in time. Folder tracks here would be very useful because only some of the tracks would be producing sound at a given time so the rest can be tucked away for ease of working on the active ones.

Now there is loop recording for audio and you get a set of tracks available from a pull down menu so already some stuff is not visible. It would be more elegant if they were in a folder track so it would be easy to cut and paste bits and see the various takes. Also, it would be easier if I like a take for a different section to pull that out and move it while leaving the other takes in place.

Folder tracks would work very nicely with the Tracktion concept.

[semiquaver]

Hi pdxindy

of course you're right, as I said there would be no harm providing folder tracks and I'm sure I would use them if they were there. It could be though that there is an elegant solution that neither you nor I have thought of that might open up other possibilities - I hadn't thought of "rack filters" myself as an alternative to Logic's saved channel strips for example, but they are more fluid and useful perhaps... I just meant that I admired the "all visible" design constraint in T and would love to see a solution as close to in keeping with that as practicable rather than just splicing something which I might be familiar with from another package. If not possible thats ok too.

The multiple takes issue in particular and comping deserve a well-though-out concept - say a comped folder track which displays the selected clips but which expands to show the muted sources or...

I just don't want to be swamped by a grab bag of features piled on willy nilly as happened overe the years with DP making it feel in time totally forbidding. If folder tracks are well implemented I'm sure that could be great.

[AD80]

and it's timestretch isn't perfect either (where have I heard THAT before ).

Isnt Logic 8 supposed to have the garageband acid treatment? I guess you have to wait for that to have your perfect sequencer.

[braj]

and it's timestretch isn't perfect either (where have I heard THAT before ).

Isnt Logic 8 supposed to have the garageband acid treatment? I guess you have to wait for that to have your perfect sequencer.

No, 7 supports Apple Loops. Only thing is, to loop a non-AL audio bit, you need to launch the Soundtrack Utility to create the loop. It would be nice to do that internally, but as for using them, it works lovely.

Anyway, there will likely never be a perfect sequencer. Hopefully Tracktion will evolve in that direction though. :cheers: here's hoping!

[AD80]

No, 7 supports Apple Loops. Only thing is, to loop a non-AL audio bit, you need to launch the Soundtrack Utility to create the loop.

Thats exactly what I'm talking about. L8 is supposed to have that internally right.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

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