Bargain Center: discussion, gossip, etc.

[krandr]

$99 is a fantastic price. (Some might even say a desperate price.) And many of the plugins included are well worth it. But as a Cakewalk user for many, many years, I would have to second that there are some significant bugs that Cakewalk is deliberately ignoring, apparently because fixing them would require some major rewrites of core functionality.

For tracking bands and live musicians, Sonar seems ideal! But I struggled with it for years in electronic music (and released an album that way) before finally giving up and switching away from it. In retrospect, I wish I had done so years before. MIDI routing bugs, multi-core bugs, MIDI crosstalk/VST bugs, lack of proper support for grid controllers like Monome, Ohm64, etc, anemic support of other controllers, excess latency issues resulting in endless crackles and pops, and support that can run users in circles for weeks before finally acknowledging that the user's issue is a known bug that will probably never be fixed, all make it less optimal than, say, Ableton Live, for electronic music.
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100 % agree with you.

My Sonar X1c issues:
1.Matrix can't be triged when SonarX1 is in the slave mode
2.Crash when two or more vsti's with midi out enabled
3.Wrong MTC offset when SonarX1 runs as a master after computer restart.
4.Audio stream glitches on 60% dual core CPU usage. (Cubase starts glitching on 90% dual core CPU usage with same vsti's set)
5.MTC synchronization issue when SonarX1 runs as a slave.
6.Unwanted additional latency ~ 10 ms (total latency = ASIO latency + unwanted additional latency). I usually set 16 ms ASIO latency. But with unwanted additional latency i can't record drums live using drum pads.
7.Audio stream glitches at 10 ms ASIO latency with low CPU usage. (Cubase works fine on 10 ms ASIO latency )

Now i don't want to work on Sonar X1. And I can't sell it .

I think, Steinberg makes the best bug free daw's with vst hosting.
I love you Steinberg, I love your ASIO API, I love your VST 2.4 API !!!

[ancient]

GeorgeZ,

I switched to Ableton Live about a year ago. It's faster, lighter, more conducive to songwriting, has better automation, supports all controllers and has Max4Live for when I'm feeling experimental. That said, I don't use many of the integrated plugins, but use other VSTs that I was more familiar with.

The interface is positively stark, but that's part of what keeps it feeling lightweight, so I'll take the trade off. I would say that Sonar is possibly better for mixing (except that Sonar's automation is a hit and miss affair).

Because of my investment in Sonar, I went to great lengths to work around its deficiencies. I found that its MIDI & VST functions could be vastly improved by subhosting energyXT inside Sonar, and then running MIDI-based VSTs within that. There's a free version of energyXT that (I think) works, though I used the inexpensive commercial version. But doing so also adds to the complexity of routing MIDI. That why I would say that while Sonar certainly can produce electronic music, and you can find creative ways to work with its shortcomings, it's nowhere as streamlined as other packages.

When I switched to Ableton I found I was, quite literally about five to ten times faster at creating a track. So make sure you weigh that great $99 price tag against the value of your own time and how productive you want to be.


Project,

Many of Sonar's plugins can be used elsewhere. Virtually all of the "64 Series" plugins work. I regularly use the VX64 VocalStrip, TL64 Tube Leveler, and PX64 Percussion Strip in Ableton. Boost11 works (if you like the sound of Boost11!) LP64 Multiband EQ works. The excellent Channel Tools also work, along with Dimension Pro, Rapture32LE, and Z3ta+ I've only run into a few Cakewalk tools that are tied to Sonar only.

None of the DirectX plugins like Sonitus will work (though I suppose you could use a DX to VST wrapper) but remember that these tools are getting pretty old anyway. The Sonitus stuff is nice and intuitive, but it can't have much of a future without a VST overhaul.

[MFXxx]

Softube is running a discount of up to 50 per cent on its plug-ins (lower discount on the Tube-Tech emulations) via its distributors. I think Tony of Plugin Discounts has already posted in the Market Place but I had an email from Little Fish this morning and I guess the likes of Dutchmuzik (or whatever they're called now) are running with the same offer.

+1 Purchased TSar Rev and Valley Dynamite only just been demoing them till last week. Great timing on the offer and again thank you to Jake@LittlefishAudio.com Sign up on website, email him a price and you will be very very happy

Peace

[Project]

Project,

Many of Sonar's plugins can be used elsewhere. Virtually all of the "64 Series" plugins work. I regularly use the VX64 VocalStrip, TL64 Tube Leveler, and PX64 Percussion Strip in Ableton. Boost11 works (if you like the sound of Boost11!) LP64 Multiband EQ works. The excellent Channel Tools also work, along with Dimension Pro, Rapture32LE, and Z3ta+ I've only run into a few Cakewalk tools that are tied to Sonar only.

Thanks a lot for your clear reply, but I think I'll pass this one; too many good bargains on offer and these I don't really need after all...sometimes I feel like I need a good AA meeting group for GAS, if you get what I mean...

[pwal]

Softube is running a discount of up to 50 per cent on its plug-ins (lower discount on the Tube-Tech emulations) via its distributors. I think Tony of Plugin Discounts has already posted in the Market Place but I had an email from Little Fish this morning and I guess the likes of Dutchmuzik (or whatever they're called now) are running with the same offer.

+1 Purchased TSar Rev and Valley Dynamite only just been demoing them till last week. Great timing on the offer and again thank you to Josh@LittlefishAudio.com Sign up on website, email him a price and you will be very very happy

Peace

there's no prices shown on the little fish website, they all just say "members only"... wtf? i have to register to just see the prices?

[MFXxx]

Softube is running a discount of up to 50 per cent on its plug-ins (lower discount on the Tube-Tech emulations) via its distributors. I think Tony of Plugin Discounts has already posted in the Market Place but I had an email from Little Fish this morning and I guess the likes of Dutchmuzik (or whatever they're called now) are running with the same offer.

+1 Purchased TSar Rev and Valley Dynamite only just been demoing them till last week. Great timing on the offer and again thank you to Josh@LittlefishAudio.com Sign up on website, email him a price and you will be very very happy

Peace

there's no prices shown on the little fish website, they all just say "members only"... wtf? i have to register to just see the prices?

Same as a lot of competitive websites out there. If you decide not to your choice I save around 20$ per plugin in addition to the general publics advertised deal. Free world you can choose not to but a lot is to do with the developers MRSP advertised prices I believe. Anyway fast turnaround and finally got Valley peoples Dynamics which has been on my list for a while now and the Tsar-1 Reverb for a bargain. Im happy

[khanyz]

The Don't Crack VIP Stuff is Serial Only, so very tempting. Don't know about getting the full bundle in one go though.

EDIT: I couldn't get the demo's to work in FL Studio 10.0.8 on WinXP SP3. The meters just max out and there's no sound.

[littlefish]

but a lot is to do with the developers MRSP advertised prices I believe

Fact, And if you are ever getting a better price elsewhere let us know with something you can substantiate (email, screenshot, etc). We don't like being undersold.

We cannot openly publish our prices. We reward frequent buyers with deeper discounts.

Big big thanks for your patronage!!!

Josh Lewis

LFA

[rj0]

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We cannot openly publish our prices.

...

Hmmm, and why is that?

(An advertised price wouldn't seem to preclude offering special discounts to regular buyers. Lots of companies do that.)

[GreyLion]

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We cannot openly publish our prices.

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Hmmm, and why is that?

(An advertised price wouldn't seem to preclude offering special discounts to regular buyers. Lots of companies do that.)

I don't know anything about Littlefish specifically, but there are generally two interacting reasons for not advertising prices.

First there's Minimum Advertised Price (MAP), which is the agreement that sellers enter into with manufacturers specifying that they won't publicly go below a certain price. This keeps the sellers from engaging in cut-throat pricing with each other, thus deflating the perceived value of the product. Sellers sign contracts with manufacturers, such that advertising below MAP can result in being cut off and even being fined per contract.

Second, with the Net being what it is, we all shop for lowest advertised price, then hit another vendor for a 10%+ discount below that. With often razor-thin margins, this can result in vendors actually taking a loss on a sale. But without those price-match policies, sellers can't compete in the marketplace very well any more. No open advertising below MAP, no pricing war.

If all they show on their site is MAP, then they aren't going to stand out, so it's in their interest to blatantly signal to buyers that they sell below MAP.

HelloMusic is the latest example of somebody trying (and apparently succeeding) in basing a business on totally secret lower-than-MAP pricing on a wide range of music-related gear. Waves Universe and PluginDiscounts, who often 'advertise' here are two other examples.

There's a third reason, too. If a seller can entice you into actually contacting them and/or joining as a 'Member', thus giving them your email address, they're more likely to make sales, and be able to target future marketing toward you, than they are if you just generally hit their site and leave.

I suspect we'll be seeing a lot more of this as sellers become more desperate in this economy. In this saturated marketplace, marketing is HARD.

[GreyLion]

Incidentally, from a close read of LFA's post above, it looks like they've decided that they also need to openly go a little further than some others will, in that they state that they'll attempt a pricematch based on below-MAP emails. You'll notice the careful phrasing, of course, in that this sort of match isn't quite promised, and no exact percentage discount is mentioned.

If you're not careful with this stuff, you can shoot your business in the head. I do wish them well, and respect the attempt they're making to survive and prosper in a very Darwinian environment.

[rj0]

Like pwal above, I also looked at the site, saw no advertised prices, then walked away (quickly).

It's a business/marketing model (and yes, I understand the 'advantages'), and not one that I really care to see proliferate. Imagine if you had to join the store 'club' to even see the prices at your department store, your grocer, your bookstore, your music dealer, your VST dealer, etc., etc., etc.

Not a future that I care to visit.

[GreyLion]

@rj0 -- Yeah, it all feels somehow 'wrong' to me, too. But it's increasingly the new reality. I think that those of us in developed industrial nations have cultures where we don't haggle -- the price is just the price -- and that's one of the things that's changing as we globalize.

It's not just the little guys doing it. Check out how much more you'll encounter 'See Price in Cart' on Amazon for musical gear; it's a fairly elegant solution that I expect to see adopted more widely. That's how they get around MAP. The old ways are dying...

[MFXxx]

@rj0 -- Yeah, it all feels somehow 'wrong' to me, too. But it's increasingly the new reality. I think that those of us in developed industrial nations have cultures where we don't haggle -- the price is just the price -- and that's one of the things that's changing as we globalize.

It's not just the little guys doing it. Check out how much more you'll encounter 'See Price in Cart' on Amazon for musical gear; it's a fairly elegant solution that I expect to see adopted more widely. That's how they get around MAP. The old ways are dying...

In a way it's a 'Dammed if you do and dammed if you don't' situation.

Dealers
want business through customers and delivering margins - profit.
Customers
want product through dealers at cheapest price available - reducing profit
Manufacturers/Developers
want to sell their goods to as many people as possible with integrity to product and price - market share.

MAP/MRSP unfortunately is kind of price fixing which in some areas is not permitted, unfortunately it happens.
I often wonder why people walk into an electrical store, car dealership or otherwise and haggle for a saving./discount. Wouldn't do that in your local grocery store?! Changing times...

[dusted william]

I always haggle at a pawn shop.

dw