Let‘s speculate about 6.0

[wintoid]

Its a perfectly good IO, but how many Bitwig users didn't already have an IO (or a modular solution for CV- I know I did) with all this Bitwig 'Orange' its only going to appeal to Bitwig users...and perhaps just a very small % of those users that sre into modular and don't already have a solution for CV.

There's something very crap about Bitwig's CV calibration. I spent ages attempting to calibrate my RME soundcard to provide CV before giving up and doing it manually. If nothing else, I would hope this Orange thingy would work seamlessly with Bitwig. It was one of the most frustrating Bitwig experiences I've had, and I'm a *huge* Bitwig fan.

[pdxindy]

Lots of musicians have bought one or more of the Behringer analog monosynths and they all have patch points. Bitwig + Connect makes it easy to send CV signals to those synths (and lots of others).

The Behringers also have MIDI and USB. What extra does CV provide?

CV provides immediacy and resolution.

[machinesworking]

Just recently getting into CV, I started into electronic music when MIDI first took off, and it offered so much more with a computer etc. at the time, I have to say I really like it for all the devices that actually take advantage of it's variable signal.


I'm not the customer for Bitwigs audio interface, too few inputs and no ADAT, but like I mentioned once the R&D is done, the device is built, it's low overhead to keep it in their line up, it's an easy money maker. Even redesigning it with ADAT and more inputs isn't as hard as the initial design. I get thinking it's ridiculous in a market flooded with interfaces, but it's a revenue source.

[pdxindy]

Just recently getting into CV, I started into electronic music when MIDI first took off, and it offered so much more with a computer etc. at the time, I have to say I really like it for all the devices that actually take advantage of it's variable signal.

CV is great! Simple, reliable, will never crash or be outdated.

[perpetual3]

It makes me wonder how many Bitwig users their actually are, I am amazed there hasn't even been a 3rd party Bigwig Controller (Novation, Akai etc). I know a lot of controllers are generic and Moss writes great scrips, but still surprised that after all this time their is nothing even 'branded' as a Bitwig controller.

I'm guessing in the neighborhood of Digital Perfomer, Samplitude and now Cakewalk. Probably a little more users than those DAWs, but not by a lot.

As a user of Digital Performer this question made me think about how many users it takes to keep a company alive. Likely around 10-15 thousand users can keep a company afloat. There are 24 people in their About Us profile on their site, I would guess at least 6 more than that work there. So 30 people at roughly 70k a year is 2.1 million. They likely do not pay everyone 70K but you get an estimate of what it costs to run a company like this. At a 2.1 million a year overhead they need to make around $140 off 15 thousand end users.

Compare all this to a company like Ableton that had 2 million verified users in around 2012.

It's why hardware becomes a thing. Once the R&D is done it's only a driver that needs updating. It also makes you realize how much easier it is for companies like Apple with Logic or Ableton have it compared to the rest with the massive user bases they have.

Interesting post. Its a different market nowadays,. I don't envy anyone trying to make it was a DAW when there are so many great cheap and even free options out there. I have followed the journey of DAWS from midi only Pro24 to the first VST Cubase (mind-blowing) to Live (4, when they added midi)- Live offered something truly unique at the time (probably whey it grew so rapidly), I am not sure anything else has since then, just incremental improvements or slightly different ways of doing the same thing. Maybe Bitwig V6 will be the next big thing...but I wouldn't bet against that being Ableton either, they seem to be accelerating in development and Bitwig seem to be slowing (and I have been a Bitwig user since V1)

I boarded the Live train at v1.5 coming from DP, romplers, and cheap samplers. Immediate game changer for me.

But as far as I know, Ableton has fundamental technological limitations that prevent any substantial changes to the audio engine. I believe this is one reason why those Ableton devs left to help form Bitwig. As a Bitwig user, I’m envious of all those MFL devices, and I don’t really use the Grid deeply at all to construct my own.

When I first used Bitwig, the big thing for was the modulation system, sandboxing and better performance and stability for me, but this was on Intel Mac at the time.

[BobDog]

...
But as far as I know, Ableton has fundamental technological limitations that prevent any substantial changes to the audio engine.

There is no such thing in any software system, that is just not how things work.

"fundamental limitations" and "prevention" would make you think software could never be changed, software can always be changed, like most things really. Immutable things are quite rare.

[Cyoon]

...
But as far as I know, Ableton has fundamental technological limitations that prevent any substantial changes to the audio engine.

There is no such thing in any software system, that is just not how things work.

"fundamental limitations" and "prevention" would make you think software could never be changed, software can always be changed, like most things really. Immutable things are quite rare.

I think he refers to the (don't know exactly) 5 years to make the switch to 64 bit? Bitwig has a different technology stack, that let them make progress much faster, even with that small team. Ah yea..and Ableton just sounds bad.

[monolithx]

But as far as I know, Ableton has fundamental technological limitations that prevent any substantial changes to the audio engine. I believe this is one reason why those Ableton devs left to help form Bitwig. As a Bitwig user, I’m envious of all those MFL devices, and I don’t really use the Grid deeply at all to construct my own.

When I first used Bitwig, the big thing for was the modulation system, sandboxing and better performance and stability for me, but this was on Intel Mac at the time.

This is the Bitwig marketing bullshit. They advertise to do better than what Live does/did bad. But, now after 15 years, they are just not able to simply do what Live does. For example, regarding their never updated controllers system, I think they have their own "fundamental technological limitations". And Ableton has bought M4L, not developed it from scratch. Good luck! (And anyway, I don't care and I'm done with their modular hype, that ends in modular mess compositions). Finally, as I see that they don't improve anything once implemented and don't add enough customizations in general, for now, I won't renew anything (added the ridiculous % of sale).

There are 24 people in their About Us profile on their site, I would guess at least 6 more than that work there. So 30 people at roughly 70k a year is 2.1 million. They likely do not pay everyone 70K but you get an estimate of what it costs to run a company like this. At a 2.1 million a year overhead they need to make around $140 off 15 thousand end users.

Compare all this to a company like Ableton that had 2 million verified users in around 2012.

It's why hardware becomes a thing. Once the R&D is done it's only a driver that needs updating. It also makes you realize how much easier it is for companies like Apple with Logic or Ableton have it compared to the rest with the massive user bases they have.

They can outsource things, too. So it's complicated to have a clear view of the business.

[stamp]

This is the Bitwig marketing bullshit. They advertise to do better than what Live does/did bad.

You're imagining things... They never said to be better then anyone else...
This is unhappy costumers bullshit...

[perpetual3]

...
But as far as I know, Ableton has fundamental technological limitations that prevent any substantial changes to the audio engine.

There is no such thing in any software system, that is just not how things work.

"fundamental limitations" and "prevention" would make you think software could never be changed, software can always be changed, like most things really. Immutable things are quite rare.

You’re right, and I wasn’t clear. They would need to do a whole rewrite of the audio engine, in order to implement substantial changes - as far as I know.

[perpetual3]

Deleted

[coroknight]

Any software developer knows exactly what issues Ableton is facing technology-wise. The answer is the codebase is huge and likely has some complex cruft/hacky code, and management continues to push for new features while developers don’t have time to do major rewrites.

[pdxindy]

Any software developer knows exactly what issues Ableton is facing technology-wise. The answer is the codebase is huge and likely has some complex cruft/hacky code, and management continues to push for new features while developers don’t have time to do major rewrites.

The company may also believe that Live is good enough as it is.

[machinesworking]

Any software developer knows exactly what issues Ableton is facing technology-wise. The answer is the codebase is huge and likely has some complex cruft/hacky code, and management continues to push for new features while developers don’t have time to do major rewrites.

The company may also believe that Live is good enough as it is.

Considering its dominance in the market it's hard to argue against that.

I was very skeptical of their ability to integrate Max into Live, and of course some people still have issues with it. Not to mention IMO besides as the Bitwig crew that left Ableton stated in interviews, them wanting to do things their own way etc. I think the skepticism of the Bitwig crew that Max 4 Live would kill Lives stability was a justifiable reason to leave and make their own company. It did take a couple years before it was stable enough to use.

I'm in the Live camp again for now, but I still really root for Bitwig to just plow everyone under with amazing features in the future. I'll always appreciate a scrappy underdog over a large successful company, whether or not it makes sense to; in Bitwigs case it completely makes sense to. If Live ever gets DAWproject that would clinch it, then I could translate Bitwig sets to Push 3 standalone.

[JHernandez]

What What Whaaat? No BWS 6.0 yet?