Reason Rack extension

[christianmusicmaker]

Ok the video would always favour Re but are all devs really that frustrated with VST? Maybe they are.

Maybe, but I found this just another example of Propellerhead's increasingly nasty and negative marketing. They've stitched together Rob Papen's comments to make it look like he's saying his own commercial VST productions will cause your computer to have a BSOD. C'mon ... that's just wrong.

But it's been going this way for a while. The tag line for Propellerhead Record was "recording done right", implying that all the other developers have got it wrong. So Pro Tools, Logic, Cubase etc didn't change recording forever??

It is just marketing hype IMO, it is what it is. But yes it is not accurate.

Perhaps it's time for other developers to turn the tables a bit. To start pointing out that - even if RE is sandboxed due to Propellerhead's amazing cleverness - that still doesn't make up for the fact that they don't have a PDC that works even for their own built in devices (MClass, Neptune, Vocoder) let alone RE devices. They don't have Video, MIDI Output, decent audio editing, support for multiple sample rates or audio file formats like MP3, OGG, 32 bit wav..., Freeze, Score notation, etc etc etc.

Props might look to address some of those going forward. Let's see. But currently it does have quite a few limitations, certainly enough to stop me from getting Reason 6 (for now).

Reason is great - but VERY limited as a platform. So far RE does little to change that, because the early adopters are producing stuff that doesn't fundamentally change Reason's capabilities - for example there's still no decent orchestral sample library, guitar or piano available for use in Reason. Pretty basic stuff all around.

The Re - Shop should provide a much more accurate indicator of it's success or failure in about 12 months. It is still very early days just yet. Other devs responding to the Re concept (Cakewalk, Steinberg e.t.c) could also affect it's uptake. It could be that Props idea might get better implemented by others.

Negativity of any kind towards Propellerhead is always frowned up and attacked by the fanboys, but they get this free pass to be negative about everyone else in the industry, making out they are the only ones who have *got it right* (whatever *it* is - the latest feature they are hawking).

There will always be opinions about opinions

[Goseba]

6.5 is a free update to introduce RE's we know. But are there any other updates included not RE related? I tried to find a list yesterday but couldn't find anything.

[decalogue]

When I did own Reason I just couldn't stand those PH forums and almost never visited them. The worshipping and fanboism in there is enough to make even Apple envious.

I think that it actually affects Propellerhead's judgement about how they present stuff... they believe their own hype and their own fan base, in i reflects in the arrogance of their marketing claims and negativity to the outside world. They really DO make great stuff, but the attitude behind it has turned sour, and I don't believe they have a realistic appraisal of their own product compared to the competition :/

If Props themselves have an unrealistic evaluation of their products and fail to read the actual competition out there, it will show. Now when RE is introduced, they can focus on other stuff in Reason than making new rack devices, so who knows what they have up their sleeves, what cards they'll play for the upcoming versions of Reason. I'm sure it's more than just arrogant marketing.

[kmonkey]

6.5 is a free update to introduce RE's we know. But are there any other updates included not RE related? I tried to find a list yesterday but couldn't find anything.

Basically what you get in this upgrade for free is option (Rack extension) to spend some money in their shop. And you did get that for free.

A free option, free upgrade to throw money. Seems a bit ironic isn't it.

I really don't get that thing about Pulsar being free for a limited time If something is free then it's free

While i am enjoying demo, discovering various good things and weird obstacles i am disappointed that i as a demo user and as a potential user can't try RE to see how are these new devices work(apparently you are not allowed to try RE if you don't have their dongle)..

It is beyond my logic how did they decide to not give potential customer an option to use what they call (and certainly it is) revolutionary step in Reason paradigm

[eXode]

When I did own Reason I just couldn't stand those PH forums and almost never visited them. The worshipping and fanboism in there is enough to make even Apple envious.

I think that it actually affects Propellerhead's judgement about how they present stuff... they believe their own hype and their own fan base, in i reflects in the arrogance of their marketing claims and negativity to the outside world. They really DO make great stuff, but the attitude behind it has turned sour, and I don't believe they have a realistic appraisal of their own product compared to the competition :/

I know that I'm a fan boy and it's easy to try and point out it's strengths over it's weaknesses. However I do agree that some things stated in the marketing showed of poor knowledge of the competition.

Reason has it's shortcoming as well, as passionate I can be about pointing out it's strengths, equally obsessive I can be, pointing out things that I feel is lacking.

MIDI Out: For christ sake, just get it in there already. I'm actually surprised because I thought it would be there before something like RE's.

CV Rate: CV in Reason runs at a 64th of the audio rate (or something like that). That is well annoying because you can't then modulate between devices @ audio rate. Some of the newer devices have solved it by using audio cables instead of CV (Thor, Pulveriser and the new Pulsar RE). I just wish that there were no difference between CV/Audio per se.

Polyphonic signals: Audio and CV is monophonic (can still be stereo but only one voice). I would love support for polyphonic signals so that it would behave similar to i.e. Nord Modular or similar (i.e. just one cable but that you can have i.e. 8 or 16 voices etc).

RE: It seems that Reason/RE doesn't support vectorized graphics i.e. draggable user definable curves and the like. I hope they fix that asap.

Then a lot of workflow issues that I can't even be arsed to go in detail. ;)

Ah well. In the end I really think that people should just be happy with what they got and whatever works for you personally is what you should stick with. I mean, in the end it's about what makes us creative and when you find something that lets you be just that, stick with it! :)

[christianmusicmaker]

Some more thoughts on Reason and Re...

THE BIG 4

1. Pricing - This has split peoples opinions about Re (even on the Props forums and their user base) I appreciate the Props not wanting the apps to be 'Apple Cheap' and that devs must get paid for their work but pricing appears to be a stumbling block for some.

Props might want to revise that somehow in some way or another at some point. Even Re - devs might not be gettingthe pricing flexibility they were at one point offered. A bit of a surprise for me.

2. Perception - Many buyers want to avoid paying for what they either already have (or similar). Devs might have to produce entirely unique version of Re -plugs like this AFAICT...



... to really get the ball rolling here. More dev work would be needed but a better return is also more likely IMO .

3. Reasonable but not radical enough - I am not entirely convinced that Reason is a strong enough Host to get people to cross over. It may very well be that existing Reason users and people with no existing plugs are Props target market, but I do not believe for a minute that Props do not also have a very keen interest in pulling in users of other DAW's (who do not have Reason)$$$.

I am not sure Reason has enough to tempt those buyers yet and that IMO is Propellerheads biggest target market even if it is a long term goal and the hardest nut to crack.

4. Resale - Not much info on this but it looks like Re Plugs cannot be re - sold (no pun intended). So if one wants to try it out...best to demo the Re -plugs as any purchase could be permanent. If anyone knows otherwise please clarify. It is a big deal I think for a good number of users as re - selling plugs is a huge market. needs can change for a variety of reasons triggering a plugin sale. ]

[eXode]

Some more thoughts on Reason and Re...

THE BIG 4

I think you have some really valid points.

Point 2 is something I personally hope for as well in the long run (i.e. more unique, specific devices).

I think Reason needs MIDI out to become a viable option for more people. Personally I was a bit disappointed that it wasn't already in R.6 and I would have thought that it would come before RE's in priority.

Reason also needs some more features related to workflow and simlar to make it more interesting for other people (esp if they are to 'lure' people away from other DAW's.

[decalogue]

Could be interesting if Props offered a "subscription" version of Reason.

That is, they would keep their current price models for the dongle version (i.e. running Reason offline) but allow people to run the full Reason version with internet connection verification on a daily, monthly or pay-per-hour basis.

Especially if they hook up Reason with their iOS Figure app and make it possible for Figure users to export their stuff into Reason (for example by creating a special Figure device in the Reason rack which is essentially a clone of the iOS app).

[christianmusicmaker]

Some more thoughts on Reason and Re...

THE BIG 4

I think you have some really valid points.

Thanks.

Point 2 is something I personally hope for as well in the long run (i.e. more unique, specific devices).

I think Reason needs MIDI out to become a viable option for more people. Personally I was a bit disappointed that it wasn't already in R.6 and I would have thought that it would come before RE's in priority.

Reason also needs some more features related to workflow and simlar to make it more interesting for other people (esp if they are to 'lure' people away from other DAW's.

Yes MIDI out and and more than a few work flow features will defintely broaden the uptake of Reason and Re, both of which are very good and unique ideas that just need a bit more here and there to make them a more likely option for potential buyers.

[headquest]

Excellent points all round christianmusicmaker and eXode

I am not entirely convinced that Reason is a strong enough Host to get people to cross over. It may very well be that existing Reason users and people with no existing plugs are Props target market, but I do not believe for a minute that Props do not also have a very keen interest in pulling in users of other DAW's (who do not have Reason)$$$.

I am not sure Reason has enough to tempt those buyers yet and that IMO is Propellerheads biggest target market even if it is a long term goal and the hardest nut to crack.

I think this is a bit of an understatement to be honest... if you pick up any copy of Sound on Sound and look at the articles about top producers with their huge Pro Tools session screen shots, most of what is going on there would be difficult at best in Reason, and much of it would simply be impossible. More importantly - go to the "Mix Rescue" articles where they help home studio producers sort out their mixes - again many of the techniques just couldn't be done with Reason.

For me it's the little things that frustrate - for example I like to use field recordings and stuff from the freesound educational project, but it comes in different sample formats, most of which Reason simply won't recognise or accept. So I have to go to a separate audio editor and convert them to Reason's preferred choice: 16 or 24 bit .wav is pretty much all it likes. Quite a chore - and of course any other host will recognise and be perfectly happy importing all the common formats. But stuff like that will instantly frustrate those used to another DAW.

Then there's other features that are used daily by most mix engineers, for example Bus Channels in the mixer. There aren't any in Reason. No submixing allowed.

These are the sorts of limitations that make Reason something different from your standard DAW software. And most producers would quickly run straight back to the full-featured DAW they know and need for professional work. Even if Propellerhead totally abandon making rack devices and give that over to third party developers, the reality is that their core programme is a very long way from being a standard DAW application, and it would take years to catch up. I'm really not convinced they should even try to take it in that direction.

[headquest]

RE: It seems that Reason/RE doesn't support vectorized graphics i.e. draggable user definable curves and the like. I hope they fix that asap.

Agreed. This is why we only see the Ozone Maximiser on sale in the Prop Shop, and none of the rest of Ozone: the other components all requires the vectorized graphics for their core functionality.

Basically at this stage it's why most VSTs can't currently be ported, only the most (graphically) basic ones.

[v1o]

While I would like Midi Out in Reason to connect my MPCs and synths. I think it's a low priority update with Props. The concept of Reason is to replace a rack full of synths and the majority of Reason users (more than other DAWs) work 100% ITB with just an interface and USB controllers. Hardware synths may soon be on the way out too, given the leaps and bounds being made in quality by plugins, they are actually fewer mostly boutique Synth manufacturers on the market right now than they were before.

It's a niche market for sure. But most people prefer over priced vintage synths to anything that's on the market right now. So none of the kids out there will grow up with hardware like we did.

[v1o]

RE: It seems that Reason/RE doesn't support vectorized graphics i.e. draggable user definable curves and the like. I hope they fix that asap.

Agreed. This is why we only see the Ozone Maximiser on sale in the Prop Shop, and none of the rest of Ozone: the other components all requires the vectorized graphics for their core functionality.

Basically at this stage it's why most VSTs can't currently be ported, only the most (graphically) basic ones.

Actually RE devices are vectorised. It has been stated by developers that Reason uses 3D for its UI, meaning that it's resolution independent. You actually need a 3D modelling package to make rack extensions. It doesn't use the 2D rasterised graphics that most VST developers are used to, which is why it takes time to make the UIs.

[eXode]

Actually RE devices are vectorised. It has been stated by developers that Reason uses 3D for its UI, meaning that it's resolution independent. You actually need a 3D modelling package to make rack extensions. It doesn't use the 2D rasterised graphics that most VST developers are used to, which is why it takes time to make the UIs.

Being 3D models doesn't have anything to do with vectorized UI. What does it help that the models are 3D when they are still converted to non-scalable 2D in the rack? Look at cable guys Curve for instance. Reason just doesn't support that type of UI (yet, hopefully).

[kmonkey]

RE: It seems that Reason/RE doesn't support vectorized graphics i.e. draggable user definable curves and the like. I hope they fix that asap.

Agreed. This is why we only see the Ozone Maximiser on sale in the Prop Shop, and none of the rest of Ozone: the other components all requires the vectorized graphics for their core functionality.

Basically at this stage it's why most VSTs can't currently be ported, only the most (graphically) basic ones.

Actually RE devices are vectorised. It has been stated by developers that Reason uses 3D for its UI, meaning that it's resolution independent. You actually need a 3D modelling package to make rack extensions. It doesn't use the 2D rasterised graphics that most VST developers are used to, which is why it takes time to make the UIs.

Hahaha that was fun. No disrespect intended it was fun since i am doing graphic and i do know what is vector and what is a bitmap.

I can tell you that Reason certainly USE 2D "rasterised" graphic (it's not called like that but anyway)!! Just like a lot of other VSTs. It does not support dynamic GUI resizing at least some dev's told that. that's why you have "switches" to expand each reason device.

By "using 3D" they most likely meant to say that they use 3D models which are then exported to 2D bitmap (like anything these days).