Waves - What can we do?

[fortycoats]

Actually the laws being pointed out here don’t really apply. For one thing, you can
not own a software product, you pay for right to use it only.

This becomes crystal clear once you 'own' a waves license for longer than 365 days and public opinion on avocados in Luxembourg changes thereby rendering your c drive invalid. Wups-a-daisy!

The customer support is very quick to provide you with a link to pay up again so you can 'own' the stuff you previously 'owned' again. Until next year...

So it's not all bad!

[pekbro]

Personally, I’m just not interested in their stuff. Tho lately I am loathe to buy any software that costs more than $30, while at the same time, I spent about $1600 in the last month on hardware. So my sense of value has shifted dramatically as it pertains to the world of audio production.

Mostly, I just don’t like their stuff and their DRM. Also the plugin shell thing, I hate that.

[jochicago]

I thought I was clear, I'll repeat what I said:
They change the prices and discounts to pretend the cost has gone down when it remains the same or even goes up.

This is called deception and it's illegal.
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/bound ... -concerns/

So what are you going to do about it?

For the time being I'm settled at bitching and moaning. I'm also interested in dialog with the community so that people become informed, and if anyone has something to add or a different perspective I'd like to hear it.

I also encourage anyone that is a paying customer and feels wronged to report it to the authorities. And if I see a class action lawsuit forming up I may sign up as a member.

I think that covers what's on my docket at this stage.

For those looking to report, in the US the FTC works at a federal level and many states also have specific laws. Here is the FTC stuff:
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/media-r ... -complaint

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?S ... 3&rgn=div5

[...] where an artificial, inflated price was established for the purpose of enabling the subsequent offer of a large reduction—the “bargain” being advertised is a false one; the purchaser is not receiving the unusual value he expects. In such a case, the “reduced” price is, in reality, probably just the seller's regular price.

[...] An advertiser might use a price at which he never offered the article at all; he might feature a price which was not used in the regular course of business, or which was not used in the recent past but at some remote period in the past, without making disclosure of that fact; he might use a price that was not openly offered to the public, or that was not maintained for a reasonable length of time, but was immediately reduced.

[...] If the former price is set forth in the advertisement, [...] the advertiser should make certain that the former price is not a fictitious one

And this so far is about their deceptive pricing. However, in the world of hidden fees I believe WUP is also out of control. It's not ok to force people to accept a maintenance fee that is hidden from view at the time of purchase. And if the maintenance fee is mandatory in an industry in which maintenance fees are not common, it should be disclosed as part of the advertising.

[Greybox Audio]

deleted//

[Greybox Audio]

deleted.!

[Forgotten]

How do you propose that the members of this forum change Waves?

[Greybox Audio]

/./deleted

[Winstontaneous]

How do you propose that the members of this forum change Waves?

Use FFT to create a complementary complex Wavesform 180 degrees out of phase with the current one and cancel it out.

[pekbro]

I still think it’s a grey area, it’s too difficult to quantify the value of software. You can’t own the product as a general customer, but it’s also possible to purchase the product ownership from waves for example.

Anyway, they are not stupid and are certainly raking in the cash with these guerilla marketing tactics. Good luck with any class action suit, you would need it I’d wager.

[jochicago]

I think the biggest problem is that we as a community are not on the same page on this.

I enjoy discounts. I buy Waves plugins. I love many of the plugins and use them all the time. Does that mean I have to be 100% on board with everything Waves does?

You can also be ok with navigating their business model without ignoring that some of the stuff they do might be hurtful to others.

Personally, I feel that we as a community decide what comes next. Manufacturers look to us to see what we want and how we are going to behave. If we like buying $30 plugins, they'll keep giving us $30 plugins. If we accept BS subscriptions, they'll keep feeding us BS subscriptions. If we get split on deceptive pricing and hidden fees, we are giving them a license to keep it up.

Think more critically on this. What's best for the community? Not just what you are willing and capable of dealing with, but how do you want your fellow producers/engineers to be treated? If we all try to make choices and voice our concerns in a way that makes for a healthier community/ecosystem, we will have a long-term healthier community/ecosystem.

I've said this before, I personally don't want Waves to get in trouble, I just want them to stop. They can't swindle me, I'm on top of this stuff, I track their sales closely and now their prices, etc. So when you see me argue about this, I'm not arguing for my sake. I'm not worried they'll trip me any time soon. I'm worried they are tripping someone else, and ultimately debasing our industry, paving the road towards bad business models. I'm worried they'll keep getting worse because nobody stops them.

If you don't want this type of business model to become the norm, then resist it. Same for anything else. Resist what you don't want to see become normalized. As users, as members of the community, what we do is what we become. Together we are the gatekeepers of what's acceptable.

[teilo]

This is a classic formula. "Company X does something I don't like. Nothing I can do will stop them from doing this thing I don't like. Therefore what Company X does is illegal, because I want it to be illegal. Here's the proof: A law I don't really understand, but I wish would apply to them."

I was just dealing with this kind of nonsense in the Hauptwerk forums. All these self-important people who think they are legal experts come out of the woodwork, whining, demanding justice for imagined wrongs because they don't like someone's business model.

Get over yourselves. Buy or don't buy. Stop whining.

[robotmonkey]

There's two other issues here I was too lazy to point out but that OP misses, imho. With their microtransaction sale strategy they have probably not only increased sales but also dealt a good blow to both piracy and second hand market. There's obviously people who will continue to pirate Waves plugins just because they can but overall at those prices the incentive to pirate is probably greatly reduced for many people. And the same goes for second hand sales. They have pretty much killed of all that speculative selling that goes on. It just makes more sense to buy from Waves directly than on second hand.

[robotmonkey]

And this so far is about their deceptive pricing. However, in the world of hidden fees I believe WUP is also out of control. It's not ok to force people to accept a maintenance fee that is hidden from view at the time of purchase. And if the maintenance fee is mandatory in an industry in which maintenance fees are not common, it should be disclosed as part of the advertising.

Waves changing prices could easily be conceived as a fluctuation in response to supply and demand. Even though I'm no fan of it either, from customer point of view I see no problem. The only issue there is that they might do some reputation damage to themselves and undervalue their plugins. So there's that.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with WUP. It's not hidden and you are not forced to buy it at any point. It's actually less hidden than 99% of other companies transfer and upgrade fees, for example. Paying for maintenance is a standard in case of 99% business software. WUP is even much more lenient than the usual standard regarding this. In case of majority of enterprise software, if you skip renewing your maintenance, you are forced to buy new licenses all over at full price to get upgrades and support again.

[fortycoats]

Changed motherboard - wups you don't own anything.
Changed network adapter - wups you don't own anything.
Changed hard drive - wups you don't own anything.
Bought a new plugin - wups you don't own the old ones.

New features gained by upgrading -

Want to 'gift' because PTSD - wups I am afraid I can't do that.

When it ends up being cheaper and easier to buy your plugins again on a 'once in a lifetime' sale there's something wrong with the system.

Just my few cents.

[Greybox Audio]

--deleted.