upgrade price??

[sean808080]

sorry mixed up names...though beno is cool!

somehow i get the sense that upper mgt at mackie are responsible for the dissatisfaction i feel.

[pHz]

philip is (ex- obviously) part of RMS too surely ...

slainte rob

[headquest]

somehow i get the sense that upper mgt at mackie are responsible for the dissatisfaction i feel.

I suspect so too. By way of contrast, Cakewalk don't simply rely on users to help each other out on the forum - Ron Kuper is all over it. Likewise Frank and Alex over at Ableton... so there's no real reason why Mackie should have ?gagged Jules from continuing to interact in public debate and help with users as he used to. But there you go...

[pHz]

IIRC jules began withdrawing (in practical terms) from this forum BEFORE the mackie link-up (went public) ...

[devils advocate]

... do you buy an app because of its features and capabilities or because you like the opportunity to personally badger its dev for your own pet feature requests and / or complaints ???

[/devils advocate]

slainte rob

[headquest]

... do you buy an app because of its features and capabilities or because you like the opportunity to personally badger its dev for your own pet feature requests and / or complaints ??? slainte rob

I respect the point that you are making as a [devil's advocate] there Rob, but you know the answer is much more complex.

To answer the more flipant aspect of the question and get it out of the way, as an individual I have only ever sent one PM to Jules, which was to congratulte him on producing an outstanding piece of software. I hope that answers your most immediate question

In terms of the more serious question you are asking, indeed, why do I buy an app?

First of all it's an investment that I hope will last longer than a year. I can't imagine most musicians would actually like to be in the position of having invested time, money and reputation into an application which they subsequently need (for whatever reason) to leave behind. So I would buy the sequencer that not only has at least most of the main features I (or my students) need, and at a sensible price, but which also appears to have a solid foundation and vision for the future. Having some idea of the developer's own vision and priorities is of course an important element in making this decision.

Then of course there is the question of what happens after you have invested in the program. Most music software programs have devoted users who are willing to give freely of their time to support newcomers. And that is much appreciated. But if there are bugs or known issues, is it then down to the community to gather their brightest stars together in the search for a utility to fix the problem, or does the developer ensure that a bugfix is quickly available? Several prominent sequencers - ahem - fall down at this point in my view, while others can be strongly commended.

In terms of buying into Tracktion 2 I think the situation is markedly different from when I bought T1, not least because the price has more than doubled and the title has changed hands. As an $80 download and a brand new release from an as yet unknown developer, I felt that the existence of a few bugs and issues was an inevitable situation that would in time be remedied. As a $200 box from one of the worlds leading music companies my expectations are somewhat different.

To those currently making a decision about buying into any software application, the following questions may be helpful:

1. Does the application contain *most* of the features that are important to you, and thus fulfil your present needs?

2. Is there evidence that requests for future features are listened to by the developer and given any priority?

3. Has the developer made known his/her vision for the future development of the application, and specifically framed the priorities addressed in the present release within that ongoing vision?

4. Have all the known issues and bugs from the previous release been fully and openly dealt with, or is the developer asking for more money for an app that he/she already knows is actually faulty?

5. Does the price of the core application still compete well in the marketplace, given the features offered and advances in competing applications, and is this price likely to rise with reach update?

6. When upgrading to a new version of the application, is the upgrade price proportionate to the new features of the core program?

[diverdee]

Good post headquest - not just in relation to T2 - but in relation to most software.

[headquest]

Thanks. I hope others find it helpful too.

[Lunch Money]

Seems to me that some of those are weighted questions, posed in the context of headquest's current opinion of Tracktion.

Headquest-- I'd be curious to know how intimately familiar you are with the plans of ANY of the 4 software developers you list in your signature: Live, Reason, Audition, or Sibelius. As a point of contention-- nobody was more secretive than Propellerheads about their 'future plans' (your item # 3) for Reason, and for good reason-- the end result was nothing spectacular, so why advertise that fact in advance? Adobe simply DOESN'T give "guess what's coming next?" documents, because they understand that it's not their responsibility to provide an ongoing update about future plans or releases. Find me a post or document in which the programmer(s) are placating their user-base with promised plans for future releases and I'll happily issue a public apology for doubting you.

I'm confident that both Live and Sibelius contain known issues/bugs (your #4 in a way, though I don't think either of them are sinister about it the way that Steinberg is). Don't bother asking me what they are-- I'll save you the trouble and admit that I don't know them because I don't open threads that say, "Live isn't doing ____" or "Sibelius: I can't ______", so if you want to call that one a "moot point" then fine with me. On the other hand, certain Tracktioneers have drawn much attention to the couple of known bugs (dropped first note) while not necessarily mentioning that the application actually has a proven track record of remarkable stability. That's how it usually works. I don't get on the forum and start a post saying: "I'm on day 400 of using Tracktion without a single crash!"

Regarding price, your message is that Tracktion will just get 'too expensive', whereas Live and Sibelius already fit that bill. Audition IMO is reasonably priced only for Academic purchasers, and Reason seems well-priced, but only if a soft-studio fits your needs (or in other words, it's a decent if not mind-blowing price, but it's also the most limited application of your roster). If $200 is over-priced but your $400 Live ISN'T, I have to question your understanding of value for money.

Not to mention the street price coming in at $150 rather than $200 anyway, which falsifies your "more than double the price" statement. That price increase would not be without merit even if there WERE no boxed version or extra plug-ins. I'd pay $70 (the price difference, which doesn't take into account an upgrade path) for exactly the same download-only no-extras option that T1 had. Apparently one of your personal "really wanted this" features wasn't added, but that doesn't devalue the work that WAS done.

I dunno.

I just see a post that sort of 'lurks' at criticizing RMS and/or Mackie, but contains a touch of unintended "whoops" factor to it (aka Hypocricy).

Ultimately, it's... kind of silly... to say that a reason to not buy into T2 is because you don't know exactly what's planned for its future (esp. considering the above arguments regarding your current software of choice). It's not an investment in the future in terms of features that may or may not become available. It's an investment in the future in terms of, "Does this suit my needs now and will it suit my needs even if other sequencers get new whiz-bang toys and gimmicks?" If it doesn't suit your needs now, fine-- don't buy it. That's your prerogative and nobody can tell you you're wrong. But to say, "I'm not buying it because I'm not sure what's going to happen in the future" is possibly the worst argument I've ever heard against a product.

I'm sure I could go on for another half hour, but I'll let this one out first and then revisit it if necessary.

[semiquaver]

Greg - Sibeius has charged for only one upgrade since it left the Acorn platform. Other bugfixes and new features have been provided free. By contrast MOTU wanted about $150 per annum and broke backwards compatibility about every 2 years. So there are a range of behaviors re upgrades and they can make a big difference. So everything will be clearer when Mackie makes their decision re price and path.

[koolkeys]

I am going to break the current thread of conversation and just mention something about the included plugs.

For some odd reason, some people still go around claiming that the included plugs are mostly freeware, which is completely and utterly FALSE. Someone even said that RMIV is the only one that Mackie probably had to pay for.

Well, last time I checked, RMIV was alone the cost of the street price of T2. But that's just the beginning. Let's go to the Slayer 2. There's another $90 plug. And REFX has already said in their forums that Mackie had to pay a bunch for it.

Ok, now to Sampletank LE. I've never seen it for free, and you won't find it for free. And the loops included for it? Well, again, show me where it's free(legally).

Amplitube LE. Hmmm, seems it's not free also.

The Soundfont-1, which was formerly the Bismark BS-1, if I recall correctly, is not free. Go check the Bismark page.

Now, let's talk about the included Mackie plugs. Guess what, they aren't free! As a matter of fact, I believe they may have been coded specifically for T2. And Final Mix, although already in T1, is definately not cheap. And until T1, you couldn't get it without buying the Digital 8 Bus console.

These were just some of the plugs. And even if this is all, it is enough to raise the price and the time making contracts. But as I said before, plug-in bundles are part of DAW software these days. That's just the truth.

Sorry, just thought I would mention that again.

Koolkeys

[mandolarian]

So how much just to upgrade your T1 plugins?

[parky]

So how much just to upgrade your T1 plugins?

Smart guy!

[IIRs]

IMO, the version of Tracktion that included stable finished racks could easily have been V2, and a paid upgrade. when I bought T1 there was NO way to set up an aux send (I don't think Senderella even existed yet) and NO way to use a multi-out plug properly..

[headquest]

Seems to me that some of those are weighted questions, posed in the context of headquest's current opinion of Tracktion...

In fact I tried to give a thoughtful analysis of how I would decide upon a software purchase. Are you seriously suggesting that I have decided not to upgrade on a whim, and then made up a pack of lies simply to discredit your favourite sequencer, Lunch Money? What are you like?!

Regarding the rest of your rant, in which you talk at length about software you don't own and customer support from developers that you've never had any dealings with , I think your arguements are based on an entirely faulty premise. [they are also riddled with factual errors, but as you are not a user of any of the software you were dishing up opinions of, that is hardly a surprise!]

I was at pains in my post to say these questions of mine are general considerations. They apply equally to all the software I own, and not just music software. But nowhere did I say either that Tracktion fall short on all the counts, or that my other software succeeds at every point! None of this is as black and white as you try to make it, Lunch Money! There is no perfect sequencer, even if you would like to believe that Tracktion *is*. So for all of us there is a complex balance of points to consider before rushing into a purchase.

You had already decided to upgrade to T2 before details were even announced, and I respect your freedom to do that. But the rest of us do still have a right to evaluate the demo of T2, to make comments here about what we do and don't like about it, and to come to decisions about whether we upgrade or not.

If you wish to continue calling me a hypocrite, go ahead. Personally though I think that it is highly arrogant of you to jump on (not just me but...) so many people's opinions on so many threads, just because you *need* to defend what was in many ways an uninformed decision you made several months ago

[sean808080]

i think i may have started a little catfight here. MEOW~~~~!!

i didn't intend to start some kind of logical debate... I was simply speaking of a disgruntled 'new' consumer of tracktion. why do i have to stop in here every few days to see if the upgrade price is something i can stomach? (this isn't a new album from the beatles!)

wasn't the upgrade announced quite a while ago and the eTa for the upgrade come and gone?

LM: these are marketing questions and marketing is not an exact science. it's all about perceptions and attitudes...and my attitude about tracktion started high when i first found out about it, took a serious dip when i found out it had no midi sync (my fault!) and has been sinking fast over the past few weeks.

i really have to give headquest props for that seriously considerate and thorough post earlier. my inarticulate jaw dropped to the floor when i saw his response.

for me personally, having access to the developers was a secondary issue. it's all about price for me. that is why i paid for T1 and that is why i am very very interested to know what the upgrade price is. if it is too high i will very simply not upgrade. simple.

if i were the CEO of mackie reading this thread, I would ask the marketing folks 'what happened?' and then try to do something special for the folks at KVR to reignite their enthusiasm. i'm sure something is already in the works.....

have a great weekend everyone!