License model no way !!!

[Devogenes]

It's all about context, and thinking in relative terms.

If every other company making modular power supply units managed to make them at the same, or better, quality, for less money, then it would be reasonable for people to complain that your supply is overpriced.

Right, so, again: compare Bitwig to Live.

Full Live license: $750
Bitwig 2.0: $400
+ 2 years additional license: $320

That's 3 years of Bitwig, fully updated, for (less than) the cost of Live, excluding the cost of updating to Live 10. And that's assuming you renew your license every year, which no one is forcing you to do.

Bitwig 2.0 + 1 year of updates = half the cost of Live.

So how is it overpriced?

[humanbeingbeing]

It's all about context, and thinking in relative terms.

If every other company making modular power supply units managed to make them at the same, or better, quality, for less money, then it would be reasonable for people to complain that your supply is overpriced.

Right, so, again: compare Bitwig to Live.

Full Live license: $750
Bitwig 2.0: $400
+ 2 years additional license: $320

That's 3 years of Bitwig, fully updated, for (less than) the cost of Live, excluding the cost of updating to Live 10.

Bitwig 2.0 + 1 year of updates = half the cost of Live.

So how is it overpriced?

If the only comparison was dollars and the quality of Bitwig:Live was 1:1 you would be correct. I mean is it even 1:2? and of course we're not even factoring in opportunity cost, a lot of this hinges on the release quality of 2.0 now that we're on to cost, lets not forget about those bugs.

[Tentacles]

This subscription model actually has a really strong potential. But the way Bitwig avoids questions about the subscription and locks threads that have anything to do with it is very very suspicious. When a company releases a new policy and hides behind it, you really have to wonder if its in the customers best interest. Extremely disappointed with Bitwig right now.

[Devogenes]

If the only comparison was dollars and the quality of Bitwig:Live was 1:1 you would be correct. I mean is it even 1:2? and of course we're not even factoring in opportunity cost, a lot of this hinges on the release quality of 2.0 now that we're on to cost, lets not forget about those bugs.

Whether you personally prefer Live is not and has never been the question. If you prefer Live, then go use Live! Live is great. This is the Bitwig forum.

This subscription model actually has a really strong potential. But the way Bitwig avoids questions about the subscription and locks threads that have anything to do with it is very very suspicious. When a company releases a new policy and hides behind it, you really have to wonder if its in the customers best interest. Extremely disappointed with Bitwig right now.

Kind of ironic to say that on the 41st page of a thread specifically for complaining about the subscription model, no? Does there need to be 8 different threads of people giving "suggestions" for the subscription model?

[humanbeingbeing]

If the only comparison was dollars and the quality of Bitwig:Live was 1:1 you would be correct. I mean is it even 1:2? and of course we're not even factoring in opportunity cost, a lot of this hinges on the release quality of 2.0 now that we're on to cost, lets not forget about those bugs.

Whether you personally prefer Live is not and has never been the question. If you prefer Live, then go use Live! Live is great. This is the Bitwig forum.

I'm not sure what you think you were quoting here - "Whether you personally prefer Live is not and has never been the question" -- am I missing something? that is not the question, I think the question about the Bitwig license model?? or am I going crazy?

[humanbeingbeing]

Kind of ironic to say that on the 41st page of a thread specifically for complaining about the subscription model, no? Does there need to be 8 different threads of people giving "suggestions" for the subscription model?

How is it ironic? you're not one of those folks who says "isn't it ironic" without knowing what "ironic" means?

Bitwig free fixes for a year that you've already paid.

[Cyoon]

This subscription model actually has a really strong potential. But the way Bitwig avoids questions about the subscription and locks threads that have anything to do with it is very very suspicious. When a company releases a new policy and hides behind it, you really have to wonder if its in the customers best interest. Extremely disappointed with Bitwig right now.

they have been closed because of personal insults or dubious fresh accounts^^

[Devogenes]

I'm not sure what you think you were quoting here - "Whether you personally prefer Live is not and has never been the question" -- am I missing something? that is not the question, I think the question about the Bitwig license model?? or am I going crazy?

Your statement that Live is twice as good as Bitwig is clearly a statement of preference. That you chose to express that preference as a ratio does not make it any more relevant to the fairness of Bitwig's new pricing structure. What is relevant is that, under the new pricing structure, Bitwig is still considerably more affordable than Live, or at the least comparable with it, depending upon how you evaluate it.

[humanbeingbeing]

I'm not sure what you think you were quoting here - "Whether you personally prefer Live is not and has never been the question" -- am I missing something? that is not the question, I think the question about the Bitwig license model?? or am I going crazy?

Your statement that Live is twice as good as Bitwig is clearly a statement of preference. That you chose to express that preference as a ratio does not make it any more relevant to the fairness of Bitwig's new pricing structure. What is relevant is that, under the new pricing structure, Bitwig is still considerably more affordable than Live, or at the least comparable with it, depending upon how you evaluate it.

No Devogenes, it's not "clearly a statement of preference"... let me quote you "
Bitwig 2.0 + 1 year of updates = half the cost of Live."

Do you see what that is? Sry I don't mean to be so sharp, but I reference your ratio... it wasn't a statement of preference at all, it was reference to your math.

Now THAT is ironic.

[Devogenes]

Do you see what that is? Sry I don't mean to be so sharp, but I reference your ratio... it wasn't a statement of preference at all, it was reference to your math.

No, it wasn't:

If the only comparison was dollars and the quality of Bitwig:Live was 1:1 you would be correct. I mean is it even 1:2?

Emphasis added. But I digress. This is pointless.

[humanbeingbeing]

Do you see what that is? Sry I don't mean to be so sharp, but I reference your ratio... it wasn't a statement of preference at all, it was reference to your math.

No, it wasn't:

If the only comparison was dollars and the quality of Bitwig:Live was 1:1 you would be correct. I mean is it even 1:2?

Emphasis added. But I digress. This is pointless.

Emphasizing it doesn't change anything (??). and this is not a digression you're on the same topic (??). You are pointless though, that's true.

[humanbeingbeing]

Do you see what that is? Sry I don't mean to be so sharp, but I reference your ratio... it wasn't a statement of preference at all, it was reference to your math.

No, it wasn't:

and Trump had the largest audience to witness an inauguration, period.

[pdxindy]

It's all about context, and thinking in relative terms.

If every other company making modular power supply units managed to make them at the same, or better, quality, for less money, then it would be reasonable for people to complain that your supply is overpriced.

Right, so, again: compare Bitwig to Live.

Full Live license: $750
Bitwig 2.0: $400
+ 2 years additional license: $320

That's 3 years of Bitwig, fully updated, for (less than) the cost of Live, excluding the cost of updating to Live 10.

Bitwig 2.0 + 1 year of updates = half the cost of Live.

So how is it overpriced?

If the only comparison was dollars and the quality of Bitwig:Live was 1:1 you would be correct. I mean is it even 1:2? and of course we're not even factoring in opportunity cost, a lot of this hinges on the release quality of 2.0 now that we're on to cost, lets not forget about those bugs.

I own both... If each costs the same, I'd purchase Bitwig first. Bitwig has a lot of functionality that is important to me... that Live either does not have at all, or which is not as good.

Fundamentally, Bitwig is a better DAW. Live shuffled a lot of functionality off onto M4L... which is not so solid and reliable and which uses quite a bit of CPU.

[humanbeingbeing]

I own both... If each costs the same, I'd purchase Bitwig first. Bitwig has a lot of functionality that is important to me... that Live either does not have at all, or which is not as good.

Fundamentally, Bitwig is a better DAW. Live shuffled a lot of functionality off onto M4L... which is not so solid and reliable and which uses quite a bit of CPU.

I also own both and feel very differently. I am happy Bitwig works for you, to me it is a low quality, buggy, poor imitation of Live missing basic features, lacking stability, inferior internal devices, inferior timestretch, inferior routing, inferior time handling. Live is leagues ahead of Bitwig when it comes to reliability... Bitwig crashes constantly. I'm curious tho, you say Bitwig has a lot of functionality that is important to you, you say Bitwig is a fundamentally better DAW, but you don't really say why it's fundamentally better or what features Live doesn't have that are so important to you... we'll talk about 2.0 features when 2.0 when comes out but on paper, the modulators look cool, fades should've been there to begin with, other than that it looks boring to me....

Live didn't move any functionality off onto M4L, any device it has is an M4L device, nothing native was moved... but I do agree that M4L sucks, can only hope Live 10 has more native functions. I expect Live 10 no later than Summer , and I'm almost certain it will leave Bitwig in the dust... Bitwig has left it too late, I don't even expect Bitwig 2.0 to be stable by the summer, tho I hope I'm wrong... also Live uses far less CPU than Bitwig, Bitwig chokes on medium sized projects.

Bitwig isn't bad for a start, definitely has some nice features and a nice UI, but it falls short on the basics, the new features aren't worth anything if they're buggy, the weird behavior, constant crashing, plus poor performance really hurts it IMO. Stupid shit like vst undo, lots of little things hold it back. Maybe Bitwig will be the superior DAW come version 4, basically I think there is potential but it's years off and honestly, I think the new license model jeopardizes Bitwig's continued success.

I'm not really interested in going around in circles with regards to Live, I've said before that I personally would love to jump ship from Live, but I'm being realistic... people will insist Bitwig is this perfect thing but it isn't and nobody will be convinced otherwise from an offhand opinion, I'm only going to engage in new/entertaining and/or interesting discussion because I feel like I've said this before and it's boring me.. obviously readers should go with their instincts, way up both sides of the discussion, you don't have to be a Live user to be bothered by the subscription fee but it sure helps.

I will be sure to give Bitwig 2 beta a fair go, if I'm wrong I'll be happy to report it but I've given 1.0 enough of an opportunity.

[pdxindy]

I own both... If each costs the same, I'd purchase Bitwig first. Bitwig has a lot of functionality that is important to me... that Live either does not have at all, or which is not as good.

Fundamentally, Bitwig is a better DAW. Live shuffled a lot of functionality off onto M4L... which is not so solid and reliable and which uses quite a bit of CPU.

I also own both and feel very differently. I am happy Bitwig works for you, to me it is a low quality, buggy, poor imitation of Live missing basic features, lacking stability, inferior internal devices, inferior timestretch, inferior routing, inferior time handling. Live is leagues ahead of Bitwig when it comes to reliability... Bitwig crashes constantly. I'm curious tho, you say Bitwig has a lot of functionality that is important to you, you say Bitwig is a fundamentally better DAW, but you don't really say why it's fundamentally better or what features Live doesn't have that are so important to you... we'll talk about 2.0 features when 2.0 when comes out but on paper, the modulators look cool, fades should've been there to begin with, other than that it looks boring to me....

Live didn't move any functionality off onto M4L, any device it has is an M4L device, nothing native was moved... but I do agree that M4L sucks, can only hope Live 10 has more native functions. I expect Live 10 no later than Summer , and I'm almost certain it will leave Bitwig in the dust... Bitwig has left it too late, I don't even expect Bitwig 2.0 to be stable by the summer, tho I hope I'm wrong... also Live uses far less CPU than Bitwig, Bitwig chokes on medium sized projects.

Bitwig isn't bad for a start, definitely has some nice features and a nice UI, but it falls short on the basics, the new features aren't worth anything if they're buggy, the weird behavior, constant crashing, plus poor performance really hurts it IMO. Stupid shit like vst undo, lots of little things hold it back. Maybe Bitwig will be the superior DAW come version 4, basically I think there is potential but it's years off and honestly, I think the new license model jeopardizes Bitwig's continued success.

You're right... bad choice of words... Ableton didn't move any functionality to M4L... but they stopped developing lots of core feature requests since it can be done in M4L. Seems like no chance to get a native LFO now.

Bitwig is only infrequently crashing for me these days. My experience of it is that the devs have made very good progress since 1.2 first came out. At that time it was too unreliable. Now it is usable and while it can still improve, I do not feel frustrated with it.

I'd say Live is a bit more solid... that is without M4L. But then I do not even have an LFO. With M4L added, I'll take Bitwig for stability. Also, because of the plugin sandboxing, I lose work more often in Live when there is a crash.

Live has way better devices overall. But the core DAW I much prefer Bitwig. Multi-clip editing, audio editing in a clip, groups in groups, clip automation is better, MPE support is huge for me (a big nothing in Live), hybrid tracks (allows bounce in place) and more.

Maybe you will be right that 2.0 will be bug ridden, but the argument can be made that they have greatly improved the core of the app and so what happened with 1.0 is not likely to repeat. Basically, we do not know and only trying the demo will show us. I have no opinion on how it will be and am waiting to see.