License model no way !!!

[humanbeingbeing]

Could people stick to original posts, getting kinda bored with this.

I love repeating myself over and over and over again.

wow you spotted me saying one thing then saying something else.

bravo.

except that's clearly the same statement, with sarcasm- duh. Should I edit it to be clearer?

and humanboingboing... c'mon yuck, dull, cant you come up with something better? you suck at calling people names.

[Michael L]

we're all a glutton for punishment.

Keep Calm Human BoingBoing.png

[humanbeingbeing]

we're all a glutton for punishment.

Keep Calm Human BoingBoing.png

oh because saying it again with an image makes it that much smarter and it even makes your comments better and your arguments stronger /sarcasm (added that for you Michael).

[humanbeingbeing]

we're all a glutton for punishment.

Keep Calm Human BoingBoing.png

Maybe follow it up with more quotes from Jesus.. I really want to hear Devogenes proclaim "Christ" again. Testify.

[Cyoon]

Could this thread finally be closed pls? I think we all got the message, this is not going anywhere useful.

[Symdeb]

These are my 2 cents of concern I have with V2.

[cent #1] Cost for moving to V2
[cent #2] The support/upgrade model (features v.s stability)

[cent #1] Bitwig should have treated legacy, today's and future V2 users the same way moving to this new support/upgrade model, but they did not. The pricing negatively discriminates those who bought into BW
as early adopters and who thus also funded BW development until Dec 10.

A. Buy BW V2 between Dec 10 and Feb 28 $299 (free upgrade)
B. Buy BW V2 on Feb 28th 2017 $399
C. Those who bought V1 before Dec 10 $468 ($299 + 169 upgrade)

It would have been more acceptable if BW provided upgrade discount ($49) to V2 for type A users to get them on board and a $99 upgrade for current users. But now that they did not they the most fair options should be to provide free upgrade to all current V1 users.

[cent #2] When BW moves to a new version, (example V1 to V2) they apparently drop all support for the previous version which could be incomplete and not fully corrected for specific critical issue and this drain of support for the previous version could happen within the 12 months paid period. Users have two options, [a] keep the unsupported version (like today V1) or to upgrade and hope for fixes, but its more likely the new version will introduce new instability/bug/backward compatibility issues even for the functions of the previous version's functions. So, these are both not very favorable. Others, who prefer features over stability, may not have a big problem with that.

It would be better if BW provided support to provide fixes for all features in the older (V1) version for one or two years after the 12 months for those needing a stable version which will still work even when OS providers upgrade their OS'es, third party drivers change etc.. etc... This could even be provided at a low charge for example $49/year. Definitely its impossible to fix everything but after 2 years even a user who is in need of a stable version might consider upgrading to a newer version which has had some time to stabilize. Thus paying ($169 + $49 = effectively $100/year) might be workable for most.

Bottom line, for both moving to V2 and for future annual support, an option of $99 (with upgrade eligibility) seems reasonable. If the passed 12 months did not result in a new version, an option for bug-fixes $49/year (w/o upgrade eligibility) should be reasonable. BW should be paid for what you buy and they delivered and not for potentially vaporware future functionality. There must be some distinction between features and fixes. hopefully BW still will consider the posts on these 45 pages and consider alternatives or pricing changes. There is still a month left to do that and a chance to get the trust back of 40% of the user base.

In summary, following offerings:
$49 support 12 month w/o upgrade eligibility
$49 Change supported version to upgrade version with remaining supporting period left
$99 Unsupported version to new upgrade with 12 months support for that version


Just my POV.

[digitalfix]

But it's just not true to say "most music software" anymore.
Avid, Ableton, Steinberg, Apple and Cakewalk all have very different models, prices and copying protection.

Listen if you're gonna say something isn't true.. first do not quote out of context and second, explain yourself. These apps you list all have the same upgrade model. what price and copy protection has to do with it I have no idea.

No they aren't. Avid and Cakewalk have both introduced subscription models. Apple's fee for Logic is now seemingly a one off so only Ableton and Steinberg are wholly using your "traditional" model and there's no guarantee that they always will.

What does price and copy protection have to do with it? The same as any part of weighing up a function vs. your perceived value.

I had another look at Live Suite's pricing and it's expensive. If you take Live to be Bitwig's main competitor, the new model is very competitive.

I'm getting tired of these replies that seem to miss the point made and then start another one, I have tried to reply to everyone that addresses me but this is absurd.. I made a clear point about the fact that it took Bitwig 3 years to sort out bugs in it's software. I also said the price doesn't bother me.

If you're tired of people replying, then stop posting. You don't speak for everyone. I've found bugs in the software as well but in my experience, I'm fine with the workarounds and speed of resolution. I would suggest that you don't buy into a v1 product next time around because you will always run this risk.

Bitwig also only has one serious revenue source where as Ableton also sell Push and various items of merchandise, a book and are probably getting a cut of the packs being sold through their shop.

is this the suggestion that we should accept this just because Bitwig has less revenue? I do not care about their revenue streams, this is a market, I am the customer.

Ahhhh .. So because you're the customer, you get to have a democratic say in how they run their business and set pricing? I'm sorry to tell you that businesses set their prices according to a number of factors but ultimately, the business gets to make that call. It's up to you whether you want to buy it but there isn't any obligation for them to follow you.

It's going to boil down to whether, at this stage, you like and trust the product enough to buy into it, hold off, or not buy in at all.

In my case, I haven't had the bad experiences that you have and see the value in the new features. I'm perfectly happy to buy in for the next 12 months. You clearly aren't but no one's forcing you to so what's the big deal?

Clearly that is the situation... but of course, you don't see a 'big deal' because you're happy. you maybe need to see it from my point of view... first I saw a coming soon video for a 'next generation' DAW that made a lot of promises -- then 2 WHOLE YEARS later finally we get to have a look at it, and I bought it on day 1. I believed the hype, I got my loyalty badge (just a pointless gif apparently), then started to use the app only to find a serious mess of bugs and performance issues --- 30 versions later I keep coming back like an idiot and still find serious problems --- meanwhile, the competitor app Live more than catches up and starts to offer things I've asked for, notably automation compensation--- however I still keep coming back to Bitwig-- only to presented with a new version that doesn't even match the promised features from 2 years prior AND 1.0 is a still not good enough for me, and I'm expected to pay a license fee for the privilege of continuing this experiment/beta test...

You don't see the big deal??? the big deal is that Bitwig wasted my time and actually, 2.0 should be a courtesy release to the early adopters, instead you guys think we should wait another 12 months? Ive waited and waited already... what if 2.0 is the greatest app ever-- the sub makes me unable to buy in, it's not gonna happen because I've been scorched, basically at this stage Bitwig should be trying to keep loyal users on deck instead of serving the people who know no better (there is better) and the newbies who have started writing tracks in the last year, and have no idea about the history of this application/company.

[/quote]

Again, you decided to buy in a v1. I got in a 1.2 when the features that I was looking for were starting to appear. If you're going to be a day one buyer for a brand new company, you need to set your expectations accordingly.

It's also worth noting that v2 may well be the last "major" release we ever. The features you're talking about may not be in v2.0 but will most likely appear during the continuing lifespan so Bitwig haven't broken a promise. Apple seem to be taking this approach with Logic and it does seem to have killed quite a lot of these kinds of arguments for them.

Perhaps you need to see it from other's points of view as well. Not everyone's as upset as you are.

But to summarise: You'd be happy to pay any money as long as there aren't any bugs at all.

Hopefully, as a day one customer, you'll be on the first round of beta testers so not only will you get an extended period of feature testing before the rest of us, but you'll be able to extensively assist in the squashing of bugs. With your help, I'm looking forward to a 100% bug free experience from v2.0.

Thanks in advance, it's greatly appreciated.

[humanbeingbeing]

No they aren't. Avid and Cakewalk have both introduced subscription models.

So avid and Cakewalk and Bitwig have subscription models now.

If you're tired of people replying, then stop posting. You don't speak for everyone.

I speak for myself and will continue to speak for myself, I'm posting for others to read.

I've found bugs in the software as well but in my experience, I'm fine with the workarounds and speed of resolution. I would suggest that you don't buy into a v1 product next time around because you will always run this risk.

Goes without saying, doesn't change anything thing about the license model.

Ahhhh .. So because you're the customer, you get to have a democratic say in how they run their business and set pricing? I'm sorry to tell you that businesses set their prices according to a number of factors but ultimately, the business gets to make that call. It's up to you whether you want to buy it but there isn't any obligation for them to follow you.

No, I dont have any say at all. I speak with my money.

Hopefully, as a day one customer, you'll be on the first round of beta testers so not only will you get an extended period of feature testing before the rest of us, but you'll be able to extensively assist in the squashing of bugs. With your help, I'm looking forward to a 100% bug free experience from v2.0.

Im not doing free beta testing for Bitwig. I will certainly try out 2.0, but that is so that I decide whether it's worth my time... I dont expect anything from Bitwig, I dont expect them to change their license model... my expectations are suitably reduced.

[anp27]

Since the recent Logic update, I've started to really think about whether upgrading Bitwig to version V2 is a good idea. Logic got a UI facelift and it is now finally a joy to work in Logic (coming from the previous way too dark UI). I don't exactly have dispensable cash so I really do have to think about this. I mean, I love Bitwig, but at the moment, it doesn't provide features that I actually do need. I was first excited about Bitwig for the drum racks but I realized that I actually don't like the drum rack workflow after all, it's not as efficient as I imagined it to be . Ok, so what else does Bitwig have that Logic doesn't? It's wonderful to be able to side chain using the Audio Mod, used to be such a pain trying to side chain a non-audio track in Logic. But now in 10.3, you can finally side chain to a software instrument track which makes things so much easier and faster. Modulation in Bitwig is really neat and easy. Logic 10.3 finally allows modulation of third party plugins to be mapped directly to the Modulator plugin. Not as slick as Bitwig but it's close and more than what I need. The Mid/Side splitter in Bitwig was something I always thought was really useful... and now Logic finally has Mid/Side built into all of the stock plugins.

So what does Bitwig have that Logic does not? Groups within groups within groups (within groups). Ok. Is that feature nice? Absolutely. Is it something that I really need? Not really. What else? Clip Mode view... Logic doesn't have this (yet). I'm not at a point where I'll be playing out live anyway so I guess I don't need this feature right now. Nested device chains, yes Logic doesn't have this either but I don't mind using the conventional 'mixer' way and saving Channel Strips (the closet thing we have in Logic). MPE is something that I will potentially miss but it's definitely do not need at the moment.

What does Logic have that Bitwig doesn't? Proper audio comping and Movie Import. And a one time $200 price tag that gives you free updates throughout.

The way its looking, I might not update Bitwig this year after all, unless Bitwig suddenly gets Movie Import and Audio comping, which I highly doubt... or some really ground breaking new feature. Honestly I don't know whether I'll update or not, or whether I'll even keep my Bitwig license.

[WXLF]

@anp27 you forgot something else that Logic does that Bitwig doesn't, Logic crashes a lot

I checked out 10.3 and it crashed 3 times on startup (during the scan) and about 4 times when using it with Rewire. And some plugins from Native Instruments also brought it down. (that was just yesterday)

gui looks cool though

[SLiC]

As I posted on another thread full of false acquisitions, Bitwig have NEVER said that if you don't upgrade you wont get support, all it says is that when you subscribe you get 'priority email support'. They have also NEVER said there will be no bug fixes, just no free 'new features' unless you subscribe. It doesn't mention anything about what you wont get, only what you will get. Everything else at this time that is all speculation.

This is the sum total of information anyone has: https://www.bitwig.com/en/17/new-license-model.html

[stamp]

As I posted on another thread full of false acquisitions, Bitwig have NEVER said that if you don't upgrade you wont get support, all it says is that when you subscribe you get 'priority email support'. They have also NEVER said there will be no bug fixes, just no free 'new features' unless you subscribe. It doesn't mention anything about what you wont get, only what you will get. Everything else at this time that is all speculation.

This is the sum total of information anyone has: https://www.bitwig.com/en/17/new-license-model.html

This

[Andrei Marchenko]

Bug fixes will be part of subscription too. Except big bugs...

Thanks, Fredrik. Want to clear next thing:

For example i have update/upgrade period from February 28th 2017/February 28th 2018. In Bitwig i have bug on my system and with that bug production process is very hard for me... You don't fix it in February 28th 2017/February 28th 2018 period and fix in the beginning of March 2018. I need to pay 169$ to get new update with this bug fix, right?

Hello Andrey,

in special cases, where serious bugs have a big impact on customers ability to use the software as intended, we are willing to make compromises. In the example you give we could consider handing out an extra month or two to address the issue.

Best regards,

Fredrik

[Devogenes]

[cent #1] Bitwig should have treated legacy, today's and future V2 users the same way moving to this new support/upgrade model, but they did not. The pricing negatively discriminates those who bought into BW
as early adopters and who thus also funded BW development until Dec 10.

A. Buy BW V2 between Dec 10 and Feb 28 $299 (free upgrade)
B. Buy BW V2 on Feb 28th 2017 $399
C. Those who bought V1 before Dec 10 $468 ($299 + 169 upgrade)

It would have been more acceptable if BW provided upgrade discount ($49) to V2 for type A users to get them on board and a $99 upgrade for current users. But now that they did not they the most fair options should be to provide free upgrade to all current V1 users.

I don't think it's unreasonable to want something to be cheaper than it is, but there is a major problem with your logic here, and that problem is that people who bought Bitwig 3 years ago, like myself, have been using Bitwig for three years longer than someone who buys it today. Why shouldn't we pay for an upgrade to software we bought several years ago?

We're really splitting hairs.

[pdxindy]

You don't see the big deal??? the big deal is that Bitwig wasted my time

If your time was wasted, that is time you chose to spend that way. All the 'poor little me' victim stuff is getting tiring