License model no way !!!

[pdxindy]

[cent #1] Bitwig should have treated legacy, today's and future V2 users the same way moving to this new support/upgrade model, but they did not. The pricing negatively discriminates those who bought into BW
as early adopters and who thus also funded BW development until Dec 10.

A. Buy BW V2 between Dec 10 and Feb 28 $299 (free upgrade)
B. Buy BW V2 on Feb 28th 2017 $399
C. Those who bought V1 before Dec 10 $468 ($299 + 169 upgrade)

It would have been more acceptable if BW provided upgrade discount ($49) to V2 for type A users to get them on board and a $99 upgrade for current users. But now that they did not they the most fair options should be to provide free upgrade to all current V1 users.

I don't think it's unreasonable to want something to be cheaper than it is, but there is a major problem with your logic here, and that problem is that people who bought Bitwig 3 years ago, like myself, have been using Bitwig for three years longer than someone who buys it today. Why shouldn't we pay for an upgrade to software we bought several years ago?

We're really splitting hairs.

All these sorts of arguments are just efforts to get something cheaper. With the amount of time some people spend complaining about price, they could have earned the money for the upgrade already!

[EpikureeR]

I think this model is great. Instead of having to pay all the time for big features and just seeing bugfixes coming along the way I can now upgrade to the features I really want and wait for the moment I like to. For instance if I understand correctly I can wait 4 years and then just upgrade to the latest version with a 12month guaranteed upgrading.

I am on board for this and I don't understand all the hate you receive. I think people did not actually think this through.

Cheers

[anp27]

@anp27 you forgot something else that Logic does that Bitwig doesn't, Logic crashes a lot
I checked out 10.3 and it crashed 3 times on startup (during the scan) and about 4 times when using it with Rewire. And some plugins from Native Instruments also brought it down. (that was just yesterday)

I don't use Rewire at all so I can't comment on that, but I can tell you that Logic has been rock solid for me for a very long time now. I think I experience crashes probably once in 4 - 6 months,and this is NOT an exaggeration. I use Komplete 9 but I really only use Kontakt and I haven't had any problems.. in fact Kontakt is working better than it ever has for me recently.

[greenfly]

Since the recent Logic update, I've started to really think about whether upgrading Bitwig to version V2 is a good idea. Logic got a UI facelift and it is now finally a joy to work in Logic (coming from the previous way too dark UI). I don't exactly have dispensable cash so I really do have to think about this. I mean, I love Bitwig, but at the moment, it doesn't provide features that I actually do need. I was first excited about Bitwig for the drum racks but I realized that I actually don't like the drum rack workflow after all, it's not as efficient as I imagined it to be . Ok, so what else does Bitwig have that Logic doesn't? It's wonderful to be able to side chain using the Audio Mod, used to be such a pain trying to side chain a non-audio track in Logic. But now in 10.3, you can finally side chain to a software instrument track which makes things so much easier and faster. Modulation in Bitwig is really neat and easy. Logic 10.3 finally allows modulation of third party plugins to be mapped directly to the Modulator plugin. Not as slick as Bitwig but it's close and more than what I need. The Mid/Side splitter in Bitwig was something I always thought was really useful... and now Logic finally has Mid/Side built into all of the stock plugins.

So what does Bitwig have that Logic does not? Groups within groups within groups (within groups). Ok. Is that feature nice? Absolutely. Is it something that I really need? Not really. What else? Clip Mode view... Logic doesn't have this (yet). I'm not at a point where I'll be playing out live anyway so I guess I don't need this feature right now. Nested device chains, yes Logic doesn't have this either but I don't mind using the conventional 'mixer' way and saving Channel Strips (the closet thing we have in Logic). MPE is something that I will potentially miss but it's definitely do not need at the moment.

What does Logic have that Bitwig doesn't? Proper audio comping and Movie Import. And a one time $200 price tag that gives you free updates throughout.

The way its looking, I might not update Bitwig this year after all, unless Bitwig suddenly gets Movie Import and Audio comping, which I highly doubt... or some really ground breaking new feature. Honestly I don't know whether I'll update or not, or whether I'll even keep my Bitwig license.

Completely agree, I was set to upgrade Bitwig but after looking at what I got for free with Logic, I realised that I was trying to maintain a good opinion with regards to Bitwig, purely as a result of them being a small team, trying to do something unique, a sense of loyalty, wanting them to succeed etc

When I think about it, I have come to the conclusion like many others that they intend to milk their early adopters (cash cow model) for as much cash as they can and hopefully capture new customers for all those folk who use hardware within their DAW setups. There is no guarantee that the new version is without issue. People will be paying and expecting new features but will receive changelogs of bug fix updates and a sweetener will be thrown in every now and again to pacify any disgruntled customers. There is no way users will upgrade after 12 month unless they are enticed with lots of new features so for this to happen, Bitwig will be holding features back despite them saying they won't.

For the main customer base they are expecting you to pay for fades? (which should really be there as a core feature) and some pretty new modulation options which is a gimmick because unless you are doing crazy stuff that doesn't sound musical, the modulation that was already there in version 1 is quite advanced already. On top of that, after 12 months you are expected to dip into your wallets and purses again for some more Bitwig experience.

For my upgrade fee, I am not sure whether the new version is significantly better than what I had with v1 which was difficult to work with after a track count greater than 15-20 tracks. It was useless bouncing down to audio because (well fades were missing) so pretty much all my projects have been in midi with additional processing. I noticed many clicks and pops in the audio. Sometimes the engine crashed and wouldn't switch back on until I restarted bitwig. I've decided eventually to use it as a sketchpad and I think am happy to keep it that way with what I have already with v1. So sorry to say this to the Bitwig team, but I won't be upgrading. Thanks to Apple showing me what a point release should look like and giving me major features like selection based processing, 64 bit summing engines, track alternatives as well as a redesigned guis update right down to individual audio effects.

[pdxindy]

Since the recent Logic update, I've started to really think about whether upgrading Bitwig to version V2 is a good idea.

Bitwig cannot compete price-wise with Logic. Logic is unmatched in the DAW world as far as value for price.

[polishbroadcast]

Since the recent Logic update, I've started to really think about whether upgrading Bitwig to version V2 is a good idea.

Bitwig cannot compete price-wise with Logic. Logic is unmatched in the DAW world as far as value for price.

Totally agree. Logic isn't fair to compare to other DAWs simply because it's a loss-leader for Apple to sell hardware. That goes for all of their pro software: Final Cut, Logic, Keynote, etc. Apple currently feels they need musicians on the platform so continue to develop Logic & Garageband. The same could be said about Studio One & Digital Performer (a way to sell mixers and interfaces).

Logic & Ableton provide much more in the way of effects and instruments for the money so that is one thing I would like to see be developed more in Bitwig.

It's not shocking that developers are moving to a subscription model—it's all across the tech industry. Even Steinberg and Ableton started adding hardware to make a more appealing ecosystem but also as another way to make money. Development is expensive, especially across 3 platforms, and an infinite combination of drivers and hardware.

I just moved to PC from Mac and was an exclusive Logic user for 10+ years. Bitwig was my first choice being cross platform. Also because it has the feel/workflow of Logic, but nicer. I had some bug issues making the transition and after the pricing came out I decided to not use Bitwig, and use Studio one. After 2 weeks in Studio One, I had a change of heart: Bitwig is worth it to me, subscription and all. It's so much more resource-efficient (Studio One is a clicky mess on PC) and the actual UI tools are so much nicer ... like Logic. I hope they continue to develop the audio tools and not just focus on electronic music. One thing I love about Bitwig is the equal treatment of linear audio and clips/plugin racks.

... problem is that people who bought Bitwig 3 years ago, like myself, have been using Bitwig for three years longer than someone who buys it today. Why shouldn't we pay for an upgrade to software we bought several years ago?

Yeah this is a totally fair point. For me, I feel like since I was an early adopter, I was also an unspoken investor in the idea. Even just a small discount for the upgrade would have been a nice "thanks". Rational or not, I'm getting the sense that's part of the frustration.

[humanbeingbeing]

If your time was wasted, that is time you chose to spend that way. All the 'poor little me' victim stuff is getting tiring

as if that's all I said... I dont consider myself a victim, I wasted my time in the past and now I wont waste it in the future... I will happily waste a few paragraphs for the undecided.

[anp27]

Bitwig cannot compete price-wise with Logic. Logic is unmatched in the DAW world as far as value for price.

Ok, let's forget the price for a second then. Please be reminded that the opinion expressed is purely my own as I have different feature requirements compared to say, a strictly EDM banger type of producer.

The point I'm trying to make is that it simply doesn't make sense for me to pay $169 for a DAW that doesn't even do what I really need it to do. If Bitwig did, then I would somehow gather up the funds and pay for the upgrade.

[jonljacobi]

Since the recent Logic update, I've started to really think about whether upgrading Bitwig to version V2 is a good idea.

Bitwig cannot compete price-wise with Logic. Logic is unmatched in the DAW world as far as value for price.

Not always, when you consider the price of a Mac versus a PC. Sorry. I own two Minis, but you shouldn't exclude the price of the hardware from the equation. If you already own a Mac, then yes, Logic is an incredible deal.

[pdxindy]

There is no guarantee that the new version is without issue. People will be paying and expecting new features but will receive changelogs of bug fix updates and a sweetener will be thrown in every now and again to pacify any disgruntled customers. There is no way users will upgrade after 12 month unless they are enticed with lots of new features so for this to happen, Bitwig will be holding features back despite them saying they won't.

There is no guarantee that any software version is without issue. That is why there is a demo. You try the demo and see how it works for you. You talk like someone is forcing people to buy without trying first...

And your last point makes no sense... you say users will not upgrade after 12 months unless they are enticed with new features... and then say that is why Bitwig will hold features back... why? so that use don't want to upgrade? Makes no sense at all.

If Bitwig holds back features, then people will not upgrade until they release those features. If they hold back features, they lose money.

[pdxindy]

Bitwig cannot compete price-wise with Logic. Logic is unmatched in the DAW world as far as value for price.

Ok, let's forget the price for a second then. Please be reminded that the opinion expressed is purely my own as I have different feature requirements compared to say, a strictly EDM banger type of producer.

The point I'm trying to make is that it simply doesn't make sense for me to pay $169 for a DAW that doesn't even do what I really need it to do. If Bitwig did, then I would somehow gather up the funds and pay for the upgrade.

If some software does not work for you, then absolutely don't use it. No Daw is for everyone.

[anp27]

If some software does not work for you, then absolutely don't use it. No Daw is for everyone.

I totally agree. The answer gets clearer and clearer by the day on what I need to do.

[greenfly]

Since the recent Logic update, I've started to really think about whether upgrading Bitwig to version V2 is a good idea.

Bitwig cannot compete price-wise with Logic. Logic is unmatched in the DAW world as far as value for price.

You're right, they can't compete

I'll leave it for loyal people like yourself to pay into funding the development of this DAW and once it matures into a decent product imho that can compete with Logic/Ableton/Studio One etc then I will purchase the upgrade at a one off cost and save myself hundreds of euro through not upgrading yearly. It will of course be thanks to folk like you paying into the subscription model so people like me can buy it on the cheap in the future.

That's if they are still around of course, in which case the only people who will have lost money are those that funded the development of a product that never quite lived up to it's potential

[starflakeprj]

Since the recent Logic update, I've started to really think about whether upgrading Bitwig to version V2 is a good idea.

Bitwig cannot compete price-wise with Logic. Logic is unmatched in the DAW world as far as value for price.

Is it really? REAPER $60; Logic X Pro ~$200.

[Enrize]

Since the recent Logic update, I've started to really think about whether upgrading Bitwig to version V2 is a good idea.

Bitwig cannot compete price-wise with Logic. Logic is unmatched in the DAW world as far as value for price.

You're right, they can't compete

I'll leave it for loyal people like yourself to pay into funding the development of this DAW and once it matures into a decent product imho that can compete with Logic/Ableton/Studio One etc then I will purchase the upgrade at a one off cost and save myself hundreds of euro through not upgrading yearly. It will of course be thanks to folk like you paying into the subscription model so people like me can buy it on the cheap in the future.

That's if they are still around of course, in which case the only people who will have lost money are those that funded the development of a product that never quite lived up to it's potential

I've bought Bitwig nearly a week ago, and i already earn more money with it than i have spent.