HA!flanneljammies wrote:When I'm tracking, I move the meters ahead of my Vol/Pan filters and when I'm done, I delete 'em.
awesome... if i did that, i wouldn't be compensating for my bad-monitor induced ear fatigue, anymore.. 
tracktion mixer
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- KVRer
- 16 posts since 17 Nov, 2004 from Seattle, USA
awesome... if i did that, i wouldn't be compensating for my bad-monitor induced ear fatigue, anymore.. -
- KVRAF
- 1820 posts since 28 Mar, 2005
...multitrack recording wouldn't exist without mixers. did you fail every class you took in recording school? do you not know your recording heritage? im a little shocked at some of the "mixer cockblockers'" lack of respect for the way most pros mix. are you also trying to find an artsy fartsy substitue for the microphone as well? ...sigh...Lunch Money wrote: ...Tracktion wouldn't exist if Jules liked mixers...
mixers are how 99% of aaudio professionals are used to working. everything about tracktion other than the lack of a mixer suits me, so im arguing for it, for as long as i have a finger to type with. mackie sells mixers, speakers, hats and teeshirts about mixers. while tracktion is no mixer, it certainly needs one. it's good to hear that mackie leaked to a tracktion reviewer, by mistake, the fact that they were working on a mixer. it at least validates my suspicion that they actually know what's going on instead of listening to these folks that just don't want their little dream world invaded by reality.
lolz.
i figured that mackie wouldn't go without a mixer for very long. it's only good common sense. and even if one of these official dudes comes in and says they aren't working on one. you know they are. somewhere. it's too much a part of mixingdown audio and it's so ingrained into the psyche of professional audio to ignore, or even to leave out of a profesh app.
anyz wayz... yeah, this is looking better everyday! tough luck fellas.. maybe you could write your own app like jules and be the next cultish-like dark internet figure that makes a really great recording app. then you could have all the 16 year old chicks you want. can i come over for supper and a brandy sometime?
out
lee
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- KVRAF
- 2417 posts since 17 Jun, 2003
Lee, try to concentrate really hard for a minute ...
People use hardware mixers because they are tactile, and as yet no'one has come up with a better HANDS-ON way to mix audio.
A graphical representation of a mixer DOESN'T give you a hands on way to mix sound in the same way. A mouse can only point at one thing at once.
There's no point in software looking like a hardware mixer.
It's not all that difficult.
If you're having trouble, try to imagine the difference between "something you can touch with your hands" and "a pretty picture on your screen that you can't"
People use hardware mixers because they are tactile, and as yet no'one has come up with a better HANDS-ON way to mix audio.
A graphical representation of a mixer DOESN'T give you a hands on way to mix sound in the same way. A mouse can only point at one thing at once.
There's no point in software looking like a hardware mixer.
It's not all that difficult.
If you're having trouble, try to imagine the difference between "something you can touch with your hands" and "a pretty picture on your screen that you can't"
"my gosh it's a friggin hardware"
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- KVRist
- 488 posts since 2 Mar, 2004
Been watching this thread for some time... Here's my opinion for what its worth... I think the curent layout of Tracktion is 2nd to none for laying out ideas and I wouldn't want to sacrifice that to implement what would be a more traditional mixer.
However, once I have my ideas laid out (which includes recording complete) it's time to start leveling. I typically like to see all tracks so I fit tracks to screen. If I only have a few tracks not a problem, but if I have, lets say 15 tracks, the filter section becomes useless. I can still see how the arrangment looks but I can't even tell which filter is which.
There have been some comments about locking the size of the filter, but in this scenario I can't see how it will work. Based on the horizontal flow approach, you would not be able to fit all tracks to window and lock filter size at the same time.
If I could take specific filters from each track and reposition them somewhere along the screen that is logical for me, I have an ideal solution. I might just want to take a meter filter and pan filter, or I might want to include an eq. If I want to position them horizontally along the bottom or vertically along the left side it shouldn't matter. And then be able to save that as a preset or template, so I could reuse. I don't think such an approach detracts in anyway from the concepts of which Tracktion was initially designed for but adds greater flexibility in how each of us want to work.
However, once I have my ideas laid out (which includes recording complete) it's time to start leveling. I typically like to see all tracks so I fit tracks to screen. If I only have a few tracks not a problem, but if I have, lets say 15 tracks, the filter section becomes useless. I can still see how the arrangment looks but I can't even tell which filter is which.
There have been some comments about locking the size of the filter, but in this scenario I can't see how it will work. Based on the horizontal flow approach, you would not be able to fit all tracks to window and lock filter size at the same time.
If I could take specific filters from each track and reposition them somewhere along the screen that is logical for me, I have an ideal solution. I might just want to take a meter filter and pan filter, or I might want to include an eq. If I want to position them horizontally along the bottom or vertically along the left side it shouldn't matter. And then be able to save that as a preset or template, so I could reuse. I don't think such an approach detracts in anyway from the concepts of which Tracktion was initially designed for but adds greater flexibility in how each of us want to work.
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- KVRist
- 190 posts since 17 Nov, 2003
It seems like if level/volume meters were rotated 90 degress and had a locking control. We would have almost all the benefits of a mixer without the extra junk that goes along with it.
Right now the biggest problem I see with the level/volume meters compared to a normal mixer, is that you can't compare their relative settings at a glance. Rotating and locking them would fix that problem.
Right now the biggest problem I see with the level/volume meters compared to a normal mixer, is that you can't compare their relative settings at a glance. Rotating and locking them would fix that problem.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Lee, don't be dense. You usually seem smarter than that, but every now and then you spout of a steaming pile of bullshit. 
Your entire post was basically a childish rant in which you try (and fail) to show how you're a professional who knows how it "should be," and how the "cockblockers" are eejits in a fantasy world.
Go splash some cold water on your face, man!
FWIW, one Mackie employee saying "there will be a mixer" doesn't make it so. Coulda been a simple mistake. I'm amazed at how quickly and voraciously you've snatched up that bit of sketchy info, though!
Greg
Your entire post was basically a childish rant in which you try (and fail) to show how you're a professional who knows how it "should be," and how the "cockblockers"
are eejits in a fantasy world.Go splash some cold water on your face, man!
FWIW, one Mackie employee saying "there will be a mixer" doesn't make it so. Coulda been a simple mistake. I'm amazed at how quickly and voraciously you've snatched up that bit of sketchy info, though!
Greg
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- KVRAF
- 10815 posts since 26 Nov, 2004 from UK
to be fair, all the pro's do mix with a (cough cough) normal styled mixer
(notice how i did not say T2 has no mixer)
Tracktion will one day have a normal mixer it just wont need to be used if you dont want to 
but also! no amount of ranting will get it here any quicker!
so lets stop bitchin (or replying to the bitchin) & use the stuff T2 dose have
PS, +1 for a mixer in T2
Subz
(notice how i did not say T2 has no mixer)
Tracktion will one day have a normal mixer
it just wont need to be used if you dont want to but also! no amount of ranting will get it here any quicker!
so lets stop bitchin (or replying to the bitchin) & use the stuff T2 dose have
PS, +1 for a mixer in T2
Subz
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
All the pros mix with a hardware mixer. Which you can do with Tracktion, too.
I couldn't be arsed what the "pros" are using anyhow. Being professional at something doesn't make you superior or of more intelligence. A GOOD producer and engineer is more concerned about results than tools. And you can at least imagine that there are "professionals" out there who say to themselves, "Why this stupid fake hardware-looking mixer? I want technology to evolve!"
A few people on here are actual "professionals" that prefer Tracktion's way, too, ya know. Not everyone's an amateur home studio hack like me.
Besides, ad populem arguments have no logical relevance! Titanic and The Phantom Menace were multi-mega-huge blockbusters, but that doesn't make them "good movies" or examples of "correct filmmaking."
Greg
I couldn't be arsed what the "pros" are using anyhow. Being professional at something doesn't make you superior or of more intelligence. A GOOD producer and engineer is more concerned about results than tools. And you can at least imagine that there are "professionals" out there who say to themselves, "Why this stupid fake hardware-looking mixer? I want technology to evolve!"
A few people on here are actual "professionals" that prefer Tracktion's way, too, ya know. Not everyone's an amateur home studio hack like me.
Besides, ad populem arguments have no logical relevance! Titanic and The Phantom Menace were multi-mega-huge blockbusters, but that doesn't make them "good movies" or examples of "correct filmmaking."
Greg
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- KVRAF
- 3745 posts since 29 Sep, 2002 from Killafornia
Yup they sure do. But the SSL 9000J in real life is much different than having a picture of a 9000J on the screen. Even if it looks exact, it still wont feel the same. Thats why software shouldnt try to imitate hardware mixers. Tracktion 101.djsubject wrote:to be fair, all the pro's do mix with a (cough cough) normal styled mixer
Even when mixing ProTools projects we still use the SSL as a giant controller basically. So the software mixer in PT still doesnt get used.
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- KVRist
- 75 posts since 18 Feb, 2005 from manchester
thanks for the tips on how to use the filters greg. Next time i cant see any filters at all (never mind small ones) i'll remember your tip on hovering.... over them. HOvering over what i'm not sure cos you just end up with a mighy big empty space where all you filters are meant to be unless you reset to default height and scroll like crazy - RSI anyone? Seriously though this isnt an attempt to troll. I have tried soem of the biggy sequencers and still far prefer the workflow of T. As everyone else though i have a right to put down my "gripes" or wishes for an update, as do we all. We're all seeking those one or two things that will make our workflow that much easier. if only by a little bit.
Incidentally hovering over a filter is not something i want to do. I would far prefer to be able mix on my midi controller, but moving an assigned knob when you can't see the filter anymore becomes a bit of a pain at the end of the day. Far better if i had the option to have all of the vol/pan filters on one screen, assignable, so i can see the effect moving the control is having and watch for clipping levels etc. - something which can't currently be done without much of the mouse work you so aptly described.
Greg i don;t really understand your bugbear with this. What dfference would it make to your workflow if there was an optional mixer page? It doesn't destroy the all in one page appraoch any more than the large input filters page does in the current set up. Its merely an option which you could choose to ignore if thats the way you want to work. Hell i would probably work without the mixer in the majority of my smaller projects even if we do get one- it just that it currenly becomes messy when you get past a certain number of tracks and need to start making sends and subgroups etc.
To reiterate one of your comments to Lee earlier, you normally have a lot of educational and sensible things to say on T2 in this forum, but on this particular issue you seem to see red everytime its mentioned. Please get it into your head that we are not asking for T2 to be competely revamped, merely asking for an option to be added to enhance our enjoyment of creating and making muzak with our sequencer of choice.
right enough patronising. I'm off for a hover.
Wal
Incidentally hovering over a filter is not something i want to do. I would far prefer to be able mix on my midi controller, but moving an assigned knob when you can't see the filter anymore becomes a bit of a pain at the end of the day. Far better if i had the option to have all of the vol/pan filters on one screen, assignable, so i can see the effect moving the control is having and watch for clipping levels etc. - something which can't currently be done without much of the mouse work you so aptly described.
Greg i don;t really understand your bugbear with this. What dfference would it make to your workflow if there was an optional mixer page? It doesn't destroy the all in one page appraoch any more than the large input filters page does in the current set up. Its merely an option which you could choose to ignore if thats the way you want to work. Hell i would probably work without the mixer in the majority of my smaller projects even if we do get one- it just that it currenly becomes messy when you get past a certain number of tracks and need to start making sends and subgroups etc.
To reiterate one of your comments to Lee earlier, you normally have a lot of educational and sensible things to say on T2 in this forum, but on this particular issue you seem to see red everytime its mentioned. Please get it into your head that we are not asking for T2 to be competely revamped, merely asking for an option to be added to enhance our enjoyment of creating and making muzak with our sequencer of choice.
right enough patronising. I'm off for a hover.
Wal
Why Bother? Why the hell not.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
If you didn't like my tips, that's fine, wally. Saying "this isn't an attempt to troll" doesn't change the fact that you responded with a dismissive and condescending tone.
Regarding my suggestions and explanations, what do you think you're doing when you mix on, for example, a Cubase mixer? You have to move your mouse to exactly the spot that the slider's on. Why is that different than hovering over the filter? And it's not like "traditional-style" mixers have this unlimited screen space that you seem to think exists. Once you get into multi-track counts, there's scrolling and searching to be had there, too. It's not the magic cure for what you perceive as navigation difficulties.
I don't have a bugbear beyond what I've already stated. If people would get their heads out of their asses instead of trying to find an enemy, they'd remember that I said, "It's fine, I just have a million other things I need/want first." It's not my head that needs fixing, it's the people upon whom common sense counter-arguments fall upon deaf ears.
What I have a bugbear with is the lack of people thinking something through. I also don't like arguments that are presented as "fact" which are severely lacking in not only factual content, but any semblance of logic. It's not just this issue, if you read any other threads with hotly-debated topics, you'll see that I have a difficult time turning away from pointing out people's logical fallacies, especially when they're presented with an air of quasi-authority.
Nice cheap shots at me, by the way. Appreciated.
Any "licks" (har har, I'm not exactly scorching people with my horrible sarcasm and reprimands) I gave to Lee were a response to his obvious antagonistic words and tone. What's your excuse?
Regarding my suggestions and explanations, what do you think you're doing when you mix on, for example, a Cubase mixer? You have to move your mouse to exactly the spot that the slider's on. Why is that different than hovering over the filter? And it's not like "traditional-style" mixers have this unlimited screen space that you seem to think exists. Once you get into multi-track counts, there's scrolling and searching to be had there, too. It's not the magic cure for what you perceive as navigation difficulties.
I don't have a bugbear beyond what I've already stated. If people would get their heads out of their asses instead of trying to find an enemy, they'd remember that I said, "It's fine, I just have a million other things I need/want first." It's not my head that needs fixing, it's the people upon whom common sense counter-arguments fall upon deaf ears.
What I have a bugbear with is the lack of people thinking something through. I also don't like arguments that are presented as "fact" which are severely lacking in not only factual content, but any semblance of logic. It's not just this issue, if you read any other threads with hotly-debated topics, you'll see that I have a difficult time turning away from pointing out people's logical fallacies, especially when they're presented with an air of quasi-authority.
Nice cheap shots at me, by the way. Appreciated.
Any "licks" (har har, I'm not exactly scorching people with my horrible sarcasm and reprimands) I gave to Lee were a response to his obvious antagonistic words and tone. What's your excuse?
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- KVRist
- 75 posts since 18 Feb, 2005 from manchester
Sorry Greg. No cheap shots intended . I just took your comments to be slightly patronising and innapropriate. I have used T for over 2 years and have already worked out how to best use small filters. That wasn't my point. My point was simply that giving a workaround wasn't what i was after. I was merely putting my oar in that i believe T could do with a mixer, and comments such as "if you don't like T as it is then move to another sequencer" aren't helpful. I'm sure neither Mackie, Jules nor Beno would appreciate these comments as they reflect badly on an excellent product. (By the way i am not implying that those comments came from you, but they are in this thread somewhere).
Seriously Greg i have no gripe with you and apologise if you thought my "digs" were meant as anything but friendly banter.
I appreciate the time you and others take to help people out on these forums and if you look at my (few) past submissions you will see that they are virtually all cries for help in one form or another.
Wal
Seriously Greg i have no gripe with you and apologise if you thought my "digs" were meant as anything but friendly banter.
I appreciate the time you and others take to help people out on these forums and if you look at my (few) past submissions you will see that they are virtually all cries for help in one form or another.Wal
Why Bother? Why the hell not.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Ah, well there's the communication breakdown, then:
a ) how am I supposed to know you've used it for 2 years?
b ) they weren't a workaround suggestion. They're just the way it's done. Doing something the way it's designed to be done isn't a workaround.
Jules once said that he would NEVER put a mixer in Tracktion, so if you're going to imagine how these people feel, best be aware of their actual perspectives. As far as I know, though I haven't asked recently and shouldn't presume, Beno's not a big fan of the hardware-alike mixer, either, and was at least sympathetic and reassuring to those of us who put up a "no mixer in Tracktion" plea when Mackie took a more active role in T's development.
Times change... I no longer plead for "no mixer in Tracktion", I plead for "no priority given to mixer." Beno and Mackie may see more of a market in adding one, and that's cool. I'd like the product to get out there, but I seriously doubt that the addition of a mixer's what will spread the word. If anything, I can see more buzz being generated by, "Check this cool program out, finally someobody's ditching hardware-alike!" than "Hey, that Tracktion program I dismissed a year ago because it had no mixer now has one... I'm in!" but that's just more speculation.
Either way, I'm not a Mackie employee, so it doesn't bother me in the least to say, "If it's not working for you, get another program." I used to work at Eddie Bauer in my youth, and if someone came in with a goose down allergy and wanted an arctic parka, I would say, "Well, we have spring/fall parkas in Thinsulate, but if you want an arctic parka, ours are all premium goose down. Sorry we couldn't help you."
You can't expect a product to be all things to all people. If Tracktion never gets a mixer and there are no plans for one, I don't see what's wrong about saying, "You need a mixer? Well Tracktion's not the program for you."
Apology accepted, of course. It's the interweb! My own offered as well.
Greg
a ) how am I supposed to know you've used it for 2 years?
b ) they weren't a workaround suggestion. They're just the way it's done. Doing something the way it's designed to be done isn't a workaround.
Jules once said that he would NEVER put a mixer in Tracktion, so if you're going to imagine how these people feel, best be aware of their actual perspectives. As far as I know, though I haven't asked recently and shouldn't presume, Beno's not a big fan of the hardware-alike mixer, either, and was at least sympathetic and reassuring to those of us who put up a "no mixer in Tracktion" plea when Mackie took a more active role in T's development.
Times change... I no longer plead for "no mixer in Tracktion", I plead for "no priority given to mixer." Beno and Mackie may see more of a market in adding one, and that's cool. I'd like the product to get out there, but I seriously doubt that the addition of a mixer's what will spread the word. If anything, I can see more buzz being generated by, "Check this cool program out, finally someobody's ditching hardware-alike!" than "Hey, that Tracktion program I dismissed a year ago because it had no mixer now has one... I'm in!" but that's just more speculation.
Either way, I'm not a Mackie employee, so it doesn't bother me in the least to say, "If it's not working for you, get another program." I used to work at Eddie Bauer in my youth, and if someone came in with a goose down allergy and wanted an arctic parka, I would say, "Well, we have spring/fall parkas in Thinsulate, but if you want an arctic parka, ours are all premium goose down. Sorry we couldn't help you."
You can't expect a product to be all things to all people. If Tracktion never gets a mixer and there are no plans for one, I don't see what's wrong about saying, "You need a mixer? Well Tracktion's not the program for you."
Apology accepted, of course.
It's the interweb! My own offered as well.Greg
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- KVRAF
- 10815 posts since 26 Nov, 2004 from UK
well with a cubase sx mixer you can use the left & right arrow keys to chainge the selected channel, & the up & down keys to to controll the volume for that track,Lunch Money wrote:what do you think you're doing when you mix on, for example, a Cubase mixer?
now tell me that wouldent be kool as f**k in Tracktion?
& stop being so grouchy!
its just another mixer thread
its not like we havent been here before (is it lee )Subz
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- KVRian
- 1116 posts since 22 Apr, 2005 from Nashville, TN USA
just to stir things up a little bit....
click on it to see it in all it's glory
You gotta admit, those cute little "track icons", a new feature in 5.0, are useful as all get out to those of use who are "visually oriented".
click on it to see it in all it's glory
You gotta admit, those cute little "track icons", a new feature in 5.0, are useful as all get out to those of use who are "visually oriented".
Last edited by Hybernation on Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
