CSR-1 - Lexicon300 - Comparison

[living sounds]

Thanks a lot Martin! I'll do another drum test with a standart preset and hall/plate-algorithm (since CSR-1 has no ambience) as well as the static test tommorow (no studio time today).

Your short comparison does show how well CSR-1 performs, there is in fact very little difference.
The hardware unit has a slightly more pleasant high-end decay (but this might as well be due to different settings) and depth perception is slightly better.

However, there is one important thing the Lexcion does indeed achieve much better (and with drums this will be more obvious, I think): Use a relatively steep low pass filter at around 200 hz (but no linear phase EQ, as it might add pre-ringing) on both files, and listen to the clarity of the low frequency output. If you look at the graph in a sample editor like Audition, you'll notice the better definition of attacks on the hardware, which is very audible since it sounds a lot clearer and less smeared. This is one of the things I love in Lexicon reverbs that no plugin I've tested does achieve. It might have to do with the flaws of floating point processing - have you tried running your algorithms at integer?.

Cheers,
Gregor

So, I put up a little song that has got loads of reverb in it. The archive contains a short mix, the individual tracks and the two reverb busses (wet). Try to mach this with any reverb plugin(combination), so the song sounds as lively, transparent and has the same (insanly high) reverb level.

Settings are:
Lex1: Contem Plate, get the exact settings from the manual at Lexiconpro.com
Lex2: Random Ambience, Size 29,8m, Rev Time 1.5s, L Delay 107, R Delay 0, Diffusion 46, Spin 40, Wnader 22,8m, Rev Lv1 - 9dB, Rolloff 8.9k

Get it here: www.scherer.de/Download/300test2.rar

Cheers,
Gregor

I have only done a fast plate test - first CSR then 300. www.relab.dk/CSR300_TEST.wav

Cheers

[LiteOn]

Hi,

@living sounds: warp69 == Martin ?

I listened to it again. True, two different segments. I'm impressed.

cheers,
LiteOn

[skm80]

First of all, all four reverbs seem to have very similar Algorithms. To my ears, the reverbs sound metallic sort of like Yamaha SPX line and Wavelab4's reverb. I played several different snare samples (that I'm familiar with) through each reverb and factory settings. Different snare samples are the best way to test a reverb. It reveals tail harshness and if it has metallic sound or it's lush like TC system 6000.
I A/B the CSR against TC MK2 , UAD, SIR IR's, <<ROOM verb2 ( ultimate CPU hog) >> and my trusted DYNACORD DRP 20X .
As someone said this is at best average quality reverb. But it isn't harsh and tails are clean not grainy. If it weren't for the metallic sound (especially the ROOM and PLATE) I would say it would be up there with ROOM verb2. But like most VST reverbs it takes a lot of tweaking to get it to sit right in a track.
In fact a lot more tweaking when compared to the mentioned reverbs. It lowers the sound considerably more even with low mix added to dry signal. It is not heard or felt unless you wash the sound with it. Then you have the full on metallic signature all over the sample/track. If the project has low track count, you can get away with using it sparingly otherwise look elsewhere otherwise you'll be tweaking instead of recording and mixing. Out of all 4 CSR reverbs, I only managed to modify and save three sounds that will work with only couple of snare samples if used in a slow tempo project. HALL is the best out of the pack but not by much.
Also all 4 reverbs are EZ on CPU.

Download some IR's and SIR and you'll be happy for decades (I agree !!!!! )

If I had discovered SIR before spending $$$ on TC,UAD,RV and few other's, I could have owned a System 6000 by now maybe a used one.

[Warp69]

Thanks a lot Martin! I'll do another drum test with a standart preset and hall/plate-algorithm (since CSR-1 has no ambience) as well as the static test tommorow (no studio time today).

Your short comparison does show how well CSR-1 performs, there is in fact very little difference.
The hardware unit has a slightly more pleasant high-end decay (but this might as well be due to different settings) and depth perception is slightly better.

However, there is one important thing the Lexcion does indeed achieve much better (and with drums this will be more obvious, I think): Use a relatively steep low pass filter at around 200 hz (but no linear phase EQ, as it might add pre-ringing) on both files, and listen to the clarity of the low frequency output. If you look at the graph in a sample editor like Audition, you'll notice the better definition of attacks on the hardware, which is very audible since it sounds a lot clearer and less smeared. This is one of the things I love in Lexicon reverbs that no plugin I've tested does achieve. It might have to do with the flaws of floating point processing - have you tried running your algorithms at integer?.

First of all, I was impressed how close you can get with 5 minutes of tweaking - you could probably come even closer if you tried a bit harder than I did. But CSR is not a emulation of a Lex300 and infact some of the parameters is quite different (Low reverb time on CSR is 0.2 in the example - probably too low ). You can download my settings : www.relab.dk/Contem-Plate.ikmp - please tweak my settings for a better test.

Cheers

[Animus]

First of all, all four reverbs seem to have very similar Algorithms. To my ears, the reverbs sound metallic sort of like Yamaha SPX line and Wavelab4's reverb. I played several different snare samples (that I'm familiar with) through each reverb and factory settings. Different snare samples are the best way to test a reverb. It reveals tail harshness and if it has metallic sound or it's lush like TC system 6000.
I A/B the CSR against TC MK2 , UAD, SIR IR's, <<ROOM verb2 ( ultimate CPU hog) >> and my trusted DYNACORD DRP 20X .
As someone said this is at best average quality reverb. But it isn't harsh and tails are clean not grainy. If it weren't for the metallic sound (especially the ROOM and PLATE) I would say it would be up there with ROOM verb2. But like most VST reverbs it takes a lot of tweaking to get it to sit right in a track.
In fact a lot more tweaking when compared to the mentioned reverbs. It lowers the sound considerably more even with low mix added to dry signal. It is not heard or felt unless you wash the sound with it. Then you have the full on metallic signature all over the sample/track. If the project has low track count, you can get away with using it sparingly otherwise look elsewhere otherwise you'll be tweaking instead of recording and mixing. Out of all 4 CSR reverbs, I only managed to modify and save three sounds that will work with only couple of snare samples if used in a slow tempo project. HALL is the best out of the pack but not by much.
Also all 4 reverbs are EZ on CPU.

Download some IR's and SIR and you'll be happy for decades (I agree !!!!! )

If I had discovered SIR before spending $$$ on TC,UAD,RV and few other's, I could have owned a System 6000 by now maybe a used one.

hmmm The samples I have heard so far arn't very consistent to what you are saying. Maybe you are not using it right? Or might I suggest a Qtip.

[kilroy]

For anyone interested, here are some examples I lashed up for the Creamware Scope Lexicon plate, which is apparently similar to the CSR plate, though I do not have that plugin to properly verify any similarities/differences. I probably used the plate 90% of the time I made use of any Lexicon box. To me that plate algo was the "Lex sound". To my ears, the Scope plate does a good job of capturing the essence of the Lexicon plate sound, so if the CSR version manages to do the same then VST folks should have something to cheer about.

ClassicPlate
SlamPlate
BreathingPlate
WideTapPlate

For anyone who wants to take the time, the following are examples of a "dynamic space" modeling effort by yours truly, the primary goal of which is to render superb closed space environments, and achieve a very closely integrated and believable synergy between the source and the room into which it is placed.

DynamicRoom1
DynamicRoom2
DynamicRoom3
DynamicRoom4

[skm80]

[quote]samples I have heard so far arn't very consistent to what you are saying. Maybe you are not using it right? Or might I suggest a Qtip.[/quote]

And how in the world do you know that those samples on line were made with CSR?

and besides, I said I tested the CSR with snares. some snares sounds will bring out the metalic sound revealing the signature or nature of the algorithm. Also some brass sounds. piano or pads, strings will not. so learn how to listen first. Qtip won't help you.

[Midiworks]

Guys, simply make a few IRs than everybody can listen for
themself !

[bmanic]

http://www.amazona.de/

Here you find a online test about the CSR

And some examples from CSR , TC Powercore Classic Verb and Lexicon 960 L

Reinhard

AWESOME link! Thanks!

- bManic

[bmanic]

And how in the world do you know that those samples on line were made with CSR?

and besides, I said I tested the CSR with snares. some snares sounds will bring out the metalic sound revealing the signature or nature of the algorithm. Also some brass sounds. piano or pads, strings will not. so learn how to listen first. Qtip won't help you.

How about posting an example clip??

- bManic

[Animus]

samples I have heard so far arn't very consistent to what you are saying. Maybe you are not using it right? Or might I suggest a Qtip.

And how in the world do you know that those samples on line were made with CSR?

and besides, I said I tested the CSR with snares. some snares sounds will bring out the metalic sound revealing the signature or nature of the algorithm. Also some brass sounds. piano or pads, strings will not. so learn how to listen first. Qtip won't help you.

well some snares are by nature more metallic sounding and reverb usually accentuates and resonates the source material. Also, try rolling off some highs and/or use some HF dampening if it sounds to metallic. I find most plates especially (since they are made out of a slab of metal you know) are metallic until I tame the highs a bit.

I should have CSR sometime today so I will check it out and decide for myself, Kind of pathetic you have to buy the dam thing to demo it.

[bmanic]

As someone said this is at best average quality reverb. But it isn't harsh and tails are clean not grainy. If it weren't for the metallic sound (especially the ROOM and PLATE) I would say it would be up there with ROOM verb2.

This, if anything, shows that you lost all credibility with me (I mean your opinion about reverbs lost it's credibility) as I find Room Verb 2 (we ARE talking about SpinAudio product?) to me is the ultimate metallic shitty sounding reverb, no matter how you tweak it. It especially fails any drum tests rendering whatever percussive material you put in come out of the other end totally un-natural and useless garbage. All the sound demos that I have heard from CSR (and Kilroys SCOPE lexicon examples which are from the same developer) sound 100000 times better than anything I could ever get out of Room Verb 2 (and I do know my way around complex reverbs).

All this is just my humble opinion of course but now I'm more convinced than ever that yours is too, just a very strange one!

Cheers!
bManic

[feyshay]

I would throw ArtsAcoustic in there, too, Bmanic. I don't see it as any better than RoomVerb.

[Funkybot]

Let's get some files up then folks!

[skm80]

Well, I havn't registered mine yet. It has a ten day demo and I have 8 days left on it. if you guys want to waste your $$ or just asking for some mettalic reverb punishment then make me an credible offer since I've lost my reverb credibility and will never be able to use one.