It's a market size issue, to a degree: Linux audio is tiny compared with the overall Linux user base. The overall home market Linux user base is tiny compared with that for Windows (probably even vs Mac). A similar proportion of the Linux audio community are developers (gut feel / assumption), so you can imagine how few that means! And they're supporting a hardware and software base the same size as the commercial Windows market (i.e. people expect everything that works on Windows to work!) for nothing. Tough job! WINE's maintainers are pulled in many directions: desktop applications, games, etc. Gamers want to run their games on Linux and seem to be the loudest crowd. They only need basic audio support. So that's all WINE has built in. And there are constant issues with WINE itself, regressions and so on, as Windows evolves and the Windows applications supported change. The developers do look into bugs if a reliable regression test is available (and will add that to the test suite)... Of course, they prefer to have a patch to fix the problem, too!
Linux native audio is a different matter; it then comes down to the number of audio apps. There aren't many and there is none with the simplicity and elegance of MU.LAB.
MULAB running in Linux - A challenge to myself.
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- KVRAF
- 7412 posts since 8 Feb, 2003 from London, UK
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TheGuysanIdiot TheGuysanIdiot https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=213066
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 308 posts since 10 Aug, 2009 from United Kingdom
[pljones] - Indeed you are correct.
May be one day a real-time Linux kernel O/S running with a Linux ported MULAB.
OZ
May be one day a real-time Linux kernel O/S running with a Linux ported MULAB.
OZ
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TheGuysanIdiot TheGuysanIdiot https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=213066
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 308 posts since 10 Aug, 2009 from United Kingdom
Dear All,
I thought I would just update you all on my journey so far in to the world of Linux, Windows 7 and Windows XP.
I have been trying out various Linux distributions since I spoke to you and I have personally settled for Ubuntu Studio 9.10.
I intend building a bare bones system with all new hardware, a sort of "mega PC". That is where my Windows 7 operating system will finally reside.
In readiness for M3 testing I have installed Windows XP on my IBM test PC. I have left a large unallocated area on the disk for a dual boot Linux build.
I have now gone back to writing my first album in MULAB M2.
The IBM PC will now be used as my main music PC for a while so that I can do an A/B test with M3 against M2.
Once M3 goes into general release I will further test M3 in Linux under Wine etc. If it works it works if it does not I will leave my MULAB/Linux trials there.
The vast majority of MULAB/Windows users will probably be on XP so I will concentrate on helping Jo get MULAB M3 rock solid in this operating system.
Anyway this is just a short note to you all to let you know what I have been up to.
I have basically gone full circle on my journey and I am now back with MULAB M2 using Windows XP.
Bye for now
OZ
I thought I would just update you all on my journey so far in to the world of Linux, Windows 7 and Windows XP.
I have been trying out various Linux distributions since I spoke to you and I have personally settled for Ubuntu Studio 9.10.
I intend building a bare bones system with all new hardware, a sort of "mega PC". That is where my Windows 7 operating system will finally reside.
In readiness for M3 testing I have installed Windows XP on my IBM test PC. I have left a large unallocated area on the disk for a dual boot Linux build.
I have now gone back to writing my first album in MULAB M2.
The IBM PC will now be used as my main music PC for a while so that I can do an A/B test with M3 against M2.
Once M3 goes into general release I will further test M3 in Linux under Wine etc. If it works it works if it does not I will leave my MULAB/Linux trials there.
The vast majority of MULAB/Windows users will probably be on XP so I will concentrate on helping Jo get MULAB M3 rock solid in this operating system.
Anyway this is just a short note to you all to let you know what I have been up to.
I have basically gone full circle on my journey and I am now back with MULAB M2 using Windows XP.
Bye for now
OZ
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- KVRAF
- 13863 posts since 24 Jun, 2008 from Europe
A little update regarding M3: Last weekend i discovered another technical issue. Had some tough (but interesting) days resolving this. Apologies for the extra unexpected delay. Working full speed to get M3 test 1 on the table asap. To be done: some more finishings and testings. Talk soon!
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- KVRist
- 185 posts since 12 Nov, 2009
I can say something about MULAB on Linux. It probably one of the most stable DAWs for me there. I prefer it greatly over Linux native DAWs.
I've encountered two main issues happening here. First one is that with heavy session taking 100% CPU MULAB 'disconnects' from WineASIO drivers or from Jack itself. When CPU meter in MULAB shows 80-90%, CPU meter in Qjackctl (GUI for Jack) shows more than 90% (I guess some of CPU is used for emulating/rendering MULLAB and vsts' GUI). In verbose mode when Jack shows message: 'load = 90.1238 [number > 90] max usecs: 56967.000 [changing], spare = 0.000 [spare 0]' you can be sure that in moment you'll see 'late driver wakeup: nframes to process'. Second message means that in seconds MULAB will disconnect from Jack. When it happens you stop hearing sound and the only way to bring it back is to restart MULAB.
Partial solution: set in MULAB max CPU usage to <=80%, set in Jack timeout value > 1000ms (I have 5000ms) that will give you some time to respond, mainly to stop playback before bad thing will happen
increase number of buffer, and/or samples in buffer (introduce latency). Unfortunately there's not much you can do. Or maybe it's just me not knowing know to set up Jack
Second thing is that a few vst plugins are causing MULAB instability. I guess there are problems with their gui not being 100% compatible with wine.
I hope MULAB the 3rd to be even more stable on Linux
Cheers for a good piece of software!
I've encountered two main issues happening here. First one is that with heavy session taking 100% CPU MULAB 'disconnects' from WineASIO drivers or from Jack itself. When CPU meter in MULAB shows 80-90%, CPU meter in Qjackctl (GUI for Jack) shows more than 90% (I guess some of CPU is used for emulating/rendering MULLAB and vsts' GUI). In verbose mode when Jack shows message: 'load = 90.1238 [number > 90] max usecs: 56967.000 [changing], spare = 0.000 [spare 0]' you can be sure that in moment you'll see 'late driver wakeup: nframes to process'. Second message means that in seconds MULAB will disconnect from Jack. When it happens you stop hearing sound and the only way to bring it back is to restart MULAB.
Partial solution: set in MULAB max CPU usage to <=80%, set in Jack timeout value > 1000ms (I have 5000ms) that will give you some time to respond, mainly to stop playback before bad thing will happen
increase number of buffer, and/or samples in buffer (introduce latency). Unfortunately there's not much you can do. Or maybe it's just me not knowing know to set up Jack Second thing is that a few vst plugins are causing MULAB instability. I guess there are problems with their gui not being 100% compatible with wine.
I hope MULAB the 3rd to be even more stable on Linux
Cheers for a good piece of software!-
- KVRist
- 185 posts since 12 Nov, 2009
Hello again in this topic! I see that M3 is going to be interesting. I'm wondering if you're going to develop M3 to be more compatible with Linux+WINE, because current compatibility it's one of the purposes why I've chosen MU.LAB to be my main DAW.
From what I hear I suppose the GUI will be even more reduced and pushed to context menu. I've just noticed that this context menu in M2.7 does not work in all the cases. Previously I was creating new patterns by just copying and duplicating existing ones, but now I noticed that I'm able to create only the first sequence. When I drag with the pencil to create another sequence, rectangle and menu disappears before I can create it. Can this be bug with multilevel menu?
It should look like:
1. draw rectangle
2. release left mouse button
3. menu appears
4. choose sequence/audio part
5. choose between new or one of existing ones
6. temporary rectangle disappears
7. new filled rectangle is created
It looks like:
1, 2, 6
It's not a big problem as only one function is currently affected and it can be replaced with simple copying and duplicating existing sequences. But when a lot more functions will be pushed into right click menu, then it's going to be disaster
Any chance that in M3 context menu will be more compatible?
OS: Mandriva 2009, WINE 1.1.25
I see that M3 is going to be interesting. I'm wondering if you're going to develop M3 to be more compatible with Linux+WINE, because current compatibility it's one of the purposes why I've chosen MU.LAB to be my main DAW.From what I hear I suppose the GUI will be even more reduced and pushed to context menu. I've just noticed that this context menu in M2.7 does not work in all the cases. Previously I was creating new patterns by just copying and duplicating existing ones, but now I noticed that I'm able to create only the first sequence. When I drag with the pencil to create another sequence, rectangle and menu disappears before I can create it. Can this be bug with multilevel menu?
It should look like:
1. draw rectangle
2. release left mouse button
3. menu appears
4. choose sequence/audio part
5. choose between new or one of existing ones
6. temporary rectangle disappears
7. new filled rectangle is created
It looks like:
1, 2, 6
It's not a big problem as only one function is currently affected and it can be replaced with simple copying and duplicating existing sequences. But when a lot more functions will be pushed into right click menu, then it's going to be disaster
Any chance that in M3 context menu will be more compatible?OS: Mandriva 2009, WINE 1.1.25
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- KVRAF
- 13863 posts since 24 Jun, 2008 from Europe
The fact that MU.LAB is already "50%" compatible via Wine is a happy coincidence, but note that it's an unsupported coincidence.
There is only one way to make MU.LAB really Linux compatible and that is setup a Linux machine here in the MUTOOLS lab and start R&Ding on the Linux platform.
This is a serious investment of dev-time resources and it must have more benefits than costs, otherwise we're risking MU.LAB's future.
Note that there are many feature requests for MU.LAB, all waiting for attention.
At this point there are no intentions yet to make MU.LAB Linux compatible.
It's a pity that Linux still is so difficult to setup
Also the multiple distributions are causing confusion, imho. I think that's why Linux still is unpopular for the big crowd... A real pity because the world could really use an open source rock solid OS.
There is only one way to make MU.LAB really Linux compatible and that is setup a Linux machine here in the MUTOOLS lab and start R&Ding on the Linux platform.
This is a serious investment of dev-time resources and it must have more benefits than costs, otherwise we're risking MU.LAB's future.
Note that there are many feature requests for MU.LAB, all waiting for attention.
At this point there are no intentions yet to make MU.LAB Linux compatible.
It's a pity that Linux still is so difficult to setup
Also the multiple distributions are causing confusion, imho. I think that's why Linux still is unpopular for the big crowd... A real pity because the world could really use an open source rock solid OS.-
- KVRist
- 185 posts since 12 Nov, 2009
Does it mean the topic is closed and I shouldn't post bug reports and M3 tests on Linux (when it appears) anymore?
Off topic:
Your release model reminds me roughly Ambient Design's (ArtRage) model. Growing Linux user base made them consider their Linux user's bug reports http://www2.ambientdesign.com/forums/sh ... ight=linux
Before releasing ArtRage 3 they were interested in debugging logs from WINE about the features that don't work (I've sent them once such a report). I think they may even support it silently as you do on your site too http://www.mutools.com/mulab/tutorials/ ... index.html
I'm sure now you see my point. Of course I understand and respect your point too.
Off topic:
Your release model reminds me roughly Ambient Design's (ArtRage) model. Growing Linux user base made them consider their Linux user's bug reports http://www2.ambientdesign.com/forums/sh ... ight=linux
Before releasing ArtRage 3 they were interested in debugging logs from WINE about the features that don't work (I've sent them once such a report). I think they may even support it silently as you do on your site too
http://www.mutools.com/mulab/tutorials/ ... index.htmlI'm sure now you see my point. Of course I understand and respect your point too.
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- KVRAF
- 13863 posts since 24 Jun, 2008 from Europe
I certainly stay open minded towards Linux!dwsel wrote:Does it mean the topic is closed and I shouldn't post bug reports and M3 tests on Linux (when it appears) anymore?
It's just that there are no near future plans to port MU.LAB to Linux as there are a lot FRs with a higher priority at this point.
But again, i stay interested in any news from Linux world.
Sure i understand. And i i could help with a little effort here and there, i'll be happy to do so. But i won't yet install a Linux machine here, as i will concentrate on the MU.LAB whishlist sorted by priority. I think MultiCore support is on top of the list now. (will resort the whishlist once M3 is released)Off topic:
Your release model reminds me roughly Ambient Design's (ArtRage) model. Growing Linux user base made them consider their Linux user's bug reports http://www2.ambientdesign.com/forums/sh ... ight=linux
Before releasing ArtRage 3 they were interested in debugging logs from WINE about the features that don't work (I've sent them once such a report). I think they may even support it silently as you do on your site too
I'm sure now you see my point. Of course I understand and respect your point too.
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- KVRAF
- 7412 posts since 8 Feb, 2003 from London, UK
That's what it looks like on Windows in M3 if you didn't double-click at the start of the drag operation.dwsel wrote:It looks like:
1, 2, 6
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- KVRAF
- 13863 posts since 24 Jun, 2008 from Europe
The question for dwsel then is:
When "drawing that rectangle" is that a fixed-height rectangle or is it a free-lasso rectangle?
The first case indicates drawing a part, the second case indicates making a selection.
Indeed, in M3 you have to double-click to start drawing a new part.
Pljones may be right in his supposition.
When "drawing that rectangle" is that a fixed-height rectangle or is it a free-lasso rectangle?
The first case indicates drawing a part, the second case indicates making a selection.
Indeed, in M3 you have to double-click to start drawing a new part.
Pljones may be right in his supposition.
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TheGuysanIdiot TheGuysanIdiot https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=213066
- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 308 posts since 10 Aug, 2009 from United Kingdom
Hi dwsel,
I started this thread as a personal journey into the world of Linux and this thread has not ended for me just paused.
I will quote myself here (my post dated - Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:51 pm)
"Once M3 goes into general release I will further test M3 in Linux under Wine etc. If it works it works if it does not I will leave my MULAB/Linux trials there."
Jo currently supports MU.LAB in Windows and Mac environments. Jo has given his opinions on Linux and I agree with him 100%.
I am sure others reading this will probably try M3 in Linux at the same time as me.
Anyway we will see in the fullness of time.
To be continued …
OZ
I started this thread as a personal journey into the world of Linux and this thread has not ended for me just paused.
I will quote myself here (my post dated - Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:51 pm)
"Once M3 goes into general release I will further test M3 in Linux under Wine etc. If it works it works if it does not I will leave my MULAB/Linux trials there."
Jo currently supports MU.LAB in Windows and Mac environments. Jo has given his opinions on Linux and I agree with him 100%.
I am sure others reading this will probably try M3 in Linux at the same time as me.
Anyway we will see in the fullness of time.
To be continued …
OZ