Blok

[Ingonator]

I just discovered that if you connect an OSC to an inverter module you could change a Sawtooth waveform to a Ramp waveform which normally sounds more "aggressive". You could even see this change if you connect a Scope module (like i do in most of my patches so far).

I am also experimenting with the Waveshaper module right now. This could lead to some really crazy results, especially if you "feed" it with multiple OSCs and different waveforms.

[GeorgeZ]

Don't take this the wrong way (I had to get this out of the way first)...
this is my true an honest assessment of the current BLOK situation:

READ THE BOLD PART AT THE BOTTOM FOR THE SHORT VERSION

I've been testing BLOK on and off since it's early betas, and had an inkling that it would turn into something nice, however, at this point I still think that 35 euros, in it's current state, is too much for an upstart modular. Sure it will develop, and you will need cash to keep the kitchen cooking, but 35 euros is already out of the no-brainer category. You are of course still developing, but at the same time, you can't sell synths on development promises. The fact that sales are going badly should already be an indication that it's price point is currently above what the general public would be willing to pay for it.

If you have a huge user base, you'll have the capacity for huge patch libs, and if you have a synth with a 1000 patches stock, you WILL have a winner.

With regards to the 32 patches per bank, look at all the major players around, they have either a 128 slot but unlimited sub (tree with subs) patch system, or a limitless "add to the pile" system.
Small patch libs and patch banks that are hard to use come across as amateur. Sure it's not a synth for amateurs, but make it a synth that amateurs WANT to pour a little bit of cash into. In it's current state only modular buffs would even consider buying it (not enough presets to attract novices and tweakers), and many less would even bother to log into their paypal for it... so that leaves you with a quarter, of a quarter, of a target market (hypothetically speaking).

Ref Predator for the "128 slot but unlimited sub" patch system:
-You can have as many banks as you like, all accessible from the main GUI, where you select a bank and then have access to the patches in the bank. The limit is imposed on the patches per bank, but not the amount of banks physically usable at one. As for the 32 patch limit in BLOK... cmon? It's a modular... it should be a beat of a 1000 faces, make some space to store them.

Ref Alchemy for a pseudo-"add to the pile" system:
-You predetermine subs with everything from fart noises to stings and everything in between, and FXP's (or which ever format you prefer) just get added to the directory of that particular sub, and next time the synth gets started it's part of that sub (obviously a reread and relist is then required on every "restart").

Now, obviously the counter argument could be that "hey, it's one of the cheapest modulars out there", however, that argument falls on it's face a bit as the "other modulars" BLOK is competing with has an established brand, user base, support systems (ie, complete manual) and market position already. To compete with the big boys, you have to establish yourself in the market. You have to have people talking about the synth to get exposure. How does one do that? Volume sales. Get 1000 [20 x 1000 = 20000] noobs to buy it, and you'll have questions threads, patch swap threads and the whole nine yards all over KVR and most likely the internet for that matter.

With a shortage of patches (and very small patch banks) and a price that's higher than what the BLOK brand can demand at present, you'll have a hard time moving units. Amend the preset management system to allow for an open architecture of a bigger amount of presets (thus getting the novices and tweakers involved who don't want to make their own "synths", and making it easier for 3rd party sound designers to make a "bank" that's worth their time and effort, numbers wise), and set a realistic price point which fall in the "I'd be bloody stupid to not buy this, even if I don't end up using it that much..." category . Every man and his dog should want (and be able) to buy this just "because", initially. I'd suggest something like US$20 would do the trick. Anything more than that is too much to just be an impulse buy.

Of course this is just my own take on it, and is merely an "Ok, I need to move some units, how am I gonna do this, what's the plan" ramble from a guy with a lot of retail and marketing experience.

Please don't take this in the wrong light, and don't take it as a judgement on your business, price point or your product. Just a possible helpful observation.

Cheers, and good luck
-George

[kx.001]

[reply to directly above - couldn't find a choice quote.. ]

Personally I think the problem is with lack of exposure rather than price, as well as the site and forum creating a sense of inertia (one of the audio demoes is from 2004?). You say the price puts people off, but there seem to have been a few responces here along the lines of 'I used it for 5 minutes and now i'm hooked on Blok' so trying it seems to convince people.

I think whats needed is to turn that instant response into a commited fanboi-ism who will increase the exposure and get people trying it.

Oh, and maybe play on the teaching aspect of Bloks history. As it's nice and easy to get sound out and sounding good (which is why I grabbed it after 5 minutes of playing) maybe work on synthesis tutorials to go with the manual. Or get people in this thread to do so, to entice modular n00bs in..

[random thoughts from someone with no experience in marketing, so YMW(ill)V..]

in a bit

[Ingonator]

Don't take this the wrong way (I had to get this out of the way first)...
this is my true an honest assessment of the current BLOK situation:

READ THE BOLD PART AT THE BOTTOM FOR THE SHORT VERSION

I've been testing BLOK on and off since it's early betas, and had an inkling that it would turn into something nice, however, at this point I still think that 35 euros, in it's current state, is too much for an upstart modular. Sure it will develop, and you will need cash to keep the kitchen cooking, but 35 euros is already out of the no-brainer category. You are of course still developing, but at the same time, you can't sell synths on development promises. The fact that sales are going badly should already be an indication that it's price point is currently above what the general public would be willing to pay for it.

If you have a huge user base, you'll have the capacity for huge patch libs, and if you have a synth with a 1000 patches stock, you WILL have a winner.

With regards to the 32 patches per bank, look at all the major players around, they have either a 128 slot but unlimited sub (tree with subs) patch system, or a limitless "add to the pile" system.
Small patch libs and patch banks that are hard to use come across as amateur. Sure it's not a synth for amateurs, but make it a synth that amateurs WANT to pour a little bit of cash into. In it's current state only modular buffs would even consider buying it (not enough presets to attract novices and tweakers), and many less would even bother to log into their paypal for it... so that leaves you with a quarter, of a quarter, of a target market (hypothetically speaking).

Ref Predator for the "128 slot but unlimited sub" patch system:
-You can have as many banks as you like, all accessible from the main GUI, where you select a bank and then have access to the patches in the bank. The limit is imposed on the patches per bank, but not the amount of banks physically usable at one. As for the 32 patch limit in BLOK... cmon? It's a modular... it should be a beat of a 1000 faces, make some space to store them.

Ref Alchemy for a pseudo-"add to the pile" system:
-You predetermine subs with everything from fart noises to stings and everything in between, and FXP's (or which ever format you prefer) just get added to the directory of that particular sub, and next time the synth gets started it's part of that sub (obviously a reread and relist is then required on every "restart").

Now, obviously the counter argument could be that "hey, it's one of the cheapest modulars out there", however, that argument falls on it's face a bit as the "other modulars" BLOK is competing with has an established brand, user base, support systems (ie, complete manual) and market position already. To compete with the big boys, you have to establish yourself in the market. You have to have people talking about the synth to get exposure. How does one do that? Volume sales. Get 1000 [20 x 1000 = 20000] noobs to buy it, and you'll have questions threads, patch swap threads and the whole nine yards all over KVR and most likely the internet for that matter.

With a shortage of patches (and very small patch banks) and a price that's higher than what the BLOK brand can demand at present, you'll have a hard time moving units. Amend the preset management system to allow for an open architecture of a bigger amount of presets (thus getting the novices and tweakers involved who don't want to make their own "synths", and making it easier for 3rd party sound designers to make a "bank" that's worth their time and effort, numbers wise), and set a realistic price point which fall in the "I'd be bloody stupid to not buy this, even if I don't end up using it that much..." category . Every man and his dog should want (and be able) to buy this just "because", initially. I'd suggest something like US$20 would do the trick. Anything more than that is too much to just be an impulse buy.

Of course this is just my own take on it, and is merely an "Ok, I need to move some units, how am I gonna do this, what's the plan" ramble from a guy with a lot of retail and marketing experience.

Please don't take this in the wrong light, and don't take it as a judgement on your business, price point or your product. Just a possible helpful observation.

Cheers, and good luck
-George

I guess that after i purchased Blok some days ago and "restarted" this thread there is already something going on and some people already wrote that they just purchased Blok.
With the latest updates (2 since i got Blok) and the next one Blok will be just great, even if compared to the "big ones" like VAZ modular and Tassman 4.

I already wrote that i'll try to do a free soundbank for Blok which will maybe lead to some more customers, who knows...

On the other hand i made 96 factory sounds for Tactile Sounds Substance which is a great synth IMO but the response to it seems to be quite low until now.

Like you said marketing seems to be the real problem but Zephod is only a single person and currently has another job to earn money so he has less time for updates and "marketing". To be honest even at this situation his customer support and the number of bugfixes/update is better than many of the big companies.
BTW is there any marketing and/or regular updates for VAZ Modular ?? I know there is but only since a short time.

example: The latest version of VAZ Modular is 3.2.0 beta 15 but the last "final" version is 3.0.4 which is around 5 years old. Isn't that strange ??

[deleted]

DELETED

[audington]

I also thought the 35 euro price was reasonable. But I'd certainly be pissed off if the price was lowered now that's I've bought it

[Ingonator]

i don't see the price tag as THE main problem ( early bird for €35 isn't too bad ) - it's more the point that there has to be much faith regarding future development - there are some features missing atm - at least in my book - but i do watch [Blok] for news for sure.

I don't see this problem. There were 2 updates in a few days now which finally fixed crashes with Ableton Live and introduced more polyphony (1 to 16 instead of 4 voices now). Some posts above Zephod published the changelog for the next update (up to build 307, current version is 300). He is even working on a Mac version AFAIK.

[GeorgeZ]

Yup, true, all valid comments, however, 35 Euro is hardly a no-brainer.
That's $46.94 (on cash rate).

Put a BLOK in every musicians reach, and you'll have a hit. People currently discussing in this thread, have synthesis experience, and most likely modular programming experience. We know not to judge a book by it's GUI, however, Timmy Snotnose will buy AAS String Studio's no-brainer, ages before he buys BLOK on it's intro offer, cause ST is pretty, and it's cheaper. He doesn't know the power under the hood. The user market you want to aim for with volume is the general "ye, it's just $XX.XX, so I got it" market. That market is currently dominated by $20.00 deals. Go over $20.00, and you're out of the recreational muso's "Wow, so cheap! I'll have it" range. Not by much, but the psychology of $1 makes a huge difference (on special $499!!! ...sounds much better than "man, just spent 500 bux on so and so"), so don't underestimate perceived value in the market. Now, if you give Timmy Snotnose something else to consider in the same range, you might just have an in... anything above, nope, not a snowball's chance in hell (and lets be honest, most people on this forum would be a Timmy candidate. The average "music cause it's fun" user, not the "I NEED a modular cause of xoxoxox and BLOK is the cheapest one". Teh trick is to catch Timmy, and the only way to do that in a consumer market is PRICE). All the other comments are valid, however, 5 users buying it at 35 euro, and each telling a friend, or 10 users buying at $20 (which is definitely a conceivable ratio of increased sales due to shift in target market) telling 10 people. Lets say half of the friends buy. That's
35 x (5 (initial 5) + 2.5(friends)) = 262.5 euro (which is roughly $350). TO 20 x (10 + 5) = $300. Now, the difference is that the $20 scale has another tier of 2.5, allowing for +/- another $50, bringing it up to the $350 mark as well. Now if you scale this exponentially shrinking scale to a mass, Ie 100, 500 or even a 1000 sales, that exponential scale starts really kicking in, and your word of mouth "friend" reference amount with regards to the Euro sales will start declining much more rapidly than the lower rate, higher mass $ sales. As such it goes without saying that your lower rate, higher penetration / mass sales will have a larger (and longer lasting) outcome/bottom line than a slightly higher rate with lower penetration / mass. If calculated to a finite end, and of course using averages it, the goes without saying that low rate, high mass will ALWAYS out perform higher rate, lower mass.

Sorry, that was properly long winded and not really necessary, but it's what the statistics show when calculated. (obviously all based on relatives, however, informed relatives and market trends are usually quite spot on these days )

As for Substance, it's got one thing square in it's way. A little yellow S/E logo is completely shafting it cause people just go "meh S/E // S/M, pass... " (and I think it happens more often than what most people would like to admit). I'm fully behind Substance, it's a really great sounding synth (even I was surprised when I tested it, to the extent that I went back to the site to go double check that I did see right, it's S/E...? Wow, how's they do it, it's SOOOO phat!).

Anyway, I won't bore you guys any further with market and statics garble

Cheers,
-George

PS: As for the changes and what's going to happen, all of that is relative. We can appreciate the work that goes into it and how it bolsters the synth, but Timmy Snotnose puts his 20 on a product, not change/fix/development logs.

[Ingonator]

As for Substance, it's got one thing square in it's way. A little yellow S/E logo is completely shafting it cause people just go "meh S/E // S/M, pass... " (and I think it happens more often than what most people would like to admit). I'm fully behind Substance, it's a really great sounding synth (even I was surprised when I tested it, to the extent that I went back to the site to go double check that I did see right, it's S/E...? Wow, how's they do it, it's SOOOO phat!).

I'm not the dev but i guess Zephod already commented about marketing etc.

If you think about that Blok was originally developed to teach students the basics of audio synthesis it's really quite professional at the moment, especially with the last updates (and upcoming updates). BTW the version for Jeskola Buzz is still free, which Buzz is too : http://www.buzzmachines.com/

Buzz itself is like a mixture of a modular synth and a DAW.

The only problem is that you can't use that version with every available DAW for which you'll need the VST version.


About Substance:
Yes, it's really great and i think that some of the "phatness" comes from the "Spread" function which is a kind of unison/hypersaw mixture and the filter. AFAIK he used custom SE modules for this.

[deleted]

DELETED

[dave dove]

i'm struggling with the preset management of this machine
i don't think it's quite straightforward enough...

i teach music in a school for young people with behavioural disorders
i write my own curriculum based on young people's needs
i do a lot of work with sound creation and manipulation
linked to speech and language... blah blah
i would like to use this as it has a nice and simple interface/structure
but
if i load a set of patches
for example from the website
they tend to all revert to the default patch
this shouldn't happen and i shouldn't need to find a workaround
if it doesn't work in a standard manner my young people will switch off

before i buy this i need to set up patches for my own sessions with young people
and trust that their work won't get lost...

otherwise great synth

dave

[Zephod]

To clear a few things up ->

1) about the lack of sales.. I'm definately NOT complaining about the number, just not too fussed about mac development until I get windows underway. I basically got pulled away to do clientwork JUST after I put the website up... stupid project that got dragged way over its deadline ( http://nederlandse.tuinbouw.nl in case anyone is wondering.. won an FWA award) So marketing has not even started yet. I only recently got the chance to actually get it ready for the full market (did lots of testing on various VST hosts with my customer base + all the buzz users)

2) the early bird price is not extremely low.. volume sales are not the target yet (see above, I cant just spam the market with a plugin that I have no confidence in), but the full package will also include the effect version and quite a few more extras. I am aiming for somewhere near 50 with discounts available for educational institutions/group lab licenses. If you look at average educational textbooks. As has been observed - once people try it and give it a chance, they do tend to love it enough. I rather have a userbase of synth-freaks than a userbase of presetbrowsing n00bs. I am not (yet) planning to make a full living out of selling audio software, just planning to help a dedicated crowd with their toolbox.

3) bank/preset management is something I still need to work on. I dont like the huge bank managers that take up an entire screen for sounds that are all just-too-crap to use.. Less patches means more care in which ones to save. A method to switch between multiple banks is ofcourse handy, and sub-presets per patch might offset the limit a bit (it is very easy to come up with like 16 sounds per patch.. ) but.. this needs some serious consideration.

4) about the complexity of the blocks - Less is more. I fully agree on that. So far every block added has been 1 too many.. In the 2002 version of blok (yes, parts of it are really that old...) I had a switch between "normal" and "advanced" mode. I might re-introduce similar categories at some point. I still "need" some extra blocks to make the sounds -I- want to make (I would love to get back in to granular synthesis and wavefield stuff) but I am not sure if I can add them while keeping the rest pure.

i'm struggling with the preset management of this machine
i don't think it's quite straightforward enough...

they tend to all revert to the default patch

Can you please elaborate on that? If it is a bug I want to get it fixed, if it isnt but you have a nice suggestion on how to improve this... I'll work on it.




(thanks for all the comments everybody! this is all rather helpful. I myself have never really been a VST customer since I always write my own stuff... so this helps


Zephod.

[Ingonator]

I just tested the new Crossfader module and found that if you use for a example a patch with two different sounds/layers you could morph them by using e.g. a LFO or an envelope with the ratio modulation input. With two of them and 4 sounds/OSCs maybe even vector synthesis is possible !!
A Custom envelope is very nice for that modulation since it's very flexible and could be looped.

Here is an example:

http://rapidshare.com/files/421034905/C ... W.jpg.html

Sounds a bit like a mixture of vector synthesis and wavetable scanning synthesis.

[Madrayken]

To clear a few things up ->

I still "need" some extra blocks to make the sounds -I- want to make (I would love to get back in to granular synthesis and wavefield stuff) but I am not sure if I can add them while keeping the rest pure.

Now that's a pair I'd be very interested in. A good granular with a large number of active grains (see Audiomulch for example) would be a great addition, and certainly justifies an extra module. Yummy.

Also, from my brief demo so far, audio-rate osc modulation yields nice results, but audio-rate filter mod seems a bit crunchy for my taste. I'll have to give it another go and see what happens...

[Zephod]

I'm ashamed to admit that the current filter cheats a bit.. it fully recalculates at small intervals and interpolates inbetween to save a LOT of cpu. For 95% of usecases this turned out to be more than good enough, but it still bugs me. (and you, obviously) A "correct" sample-rate controllable filter is a thing I would still like to add in the future, probably based around a filtertype that is less expensive to calculate (something like a nicely resonant SVF.)

Also - for the people hinting that I should have a more active homepage for blok -> I have added a special twitter news account (@BlokModular) that is duplicated on the front page -> http://www.blokmodular.com

I will get some more audio demos and sample patchbanks online soon. There have been some users that made amazing noises and tracks with Blok.