Bazzille vs. Zebra... CAGE MATCH!

[TomTwohy]

"No"?

Hahahha... I think I would enjoy it very much.

Especially if the ROI is good.

[pmb_12]

I haven't heard much of this "synth talking" stuff in modern dance music, could anyone give an example? Perhaps you mean formant filters or really, REALLY heavily distorted and quantized vocals? I just don't understand the application here... Seems like making a synth talk in the manner you all are discussing is more of an exercise.

[GruvSyco]

http://draigathar.org/sounds/Bazille52.mp3
http://draigathar.org/sounds/Bazille30.mp3

These 2 absolutely rock my world, especially the first one.

[Urs]

you took a stance that Bazzille was some amazing new item, that is debatable... I merely contend that with more modern features it could be even more so.

The "novelty" in it is the marriage of classic digital synthesis elements with the functionality of Doepfer-style modular bricks. Latter made an old concept into a big fashion. We're dragging an absolutely outdated concept into this, making it unique and fashionable again.

New "modern" elements such as MSEGs wouldn't work. That's what Zebra does better.

The onslaught of modern analogue modulars is all about the simplicity of each brick and of abusing them in non-obvious ways. That's what ACE and Bazille do.

[hakey]

I haven't heard much of this "synth talking" stuff in modern dance music, could anyone give an example? [...] I just don't understand the application here

The usefulness of a technique is measured by whether or not it's used in "modern dance music"?

[pmb_12]

I haven't heard much of this "synth talking" stuff in modern dance music, could anyone give an example? [...] I just don't understand the application here

The usefulness of a technique is measured by whether or not it's used in "modern dance music"?

I am just trying to understand the arguments here. This is what I thought Tom and sendy were getting into. Never mind.

[hakey]

The subject of talking synths came up with Tom's claim that it was really easy to do in Zebra (turns out it he was wrong).

Does making a synth talk have any use? Not really - it's just a bit of fun, and that's good enough reason, imo.

[TomTwohy]

Pardon me, I'm rather proud of that little sound I made so forgive me while I simply write you off as a whiner, Hakey.

It's about depth of modern control vs. familiar euro rack tools.

What Hakey (rather arrogantly now) is dismissing is the fact that one can more readily approach ORGANIZED complex wave modulation of devastatingly powerful custom wave forms with more modern tools.

Vocals are just one of the results, wether or not they are used in popular music is NOT the issue... it never was. It is about control.

This is the power of rendered graphic interfaces... pdxindy would have a hard time matching even my rather raw syllabic effort (he being honest enough to admit that) because ADSR and standard wave forms can't go there. My hand drawn waves were walked through one by one using the multi point envelope. Impossible in to recreate in Bazzille... the tools aren't there.

Modular can indeed achieve signal routing by simply allowing complex connections between components, but it is a CLASSIC, familiar approach. Urs describes it the same way above. I have no doubts it can make wild mutant sounds if one sits for hours experimenting.

Blending the two approaches seemed worth recommending... as U-he owns the code for both. So I suggested why not put the modern elements in there and have even more power.

Urs said above that Bazzile is going to stay the course and avoid strapping modern tools to a defined product. I don't blame him.

U-he has properties it has developed, an arsenal of code to build things from... and Urs not only has experience with Modulars but also sees that putting an digital approximation of the modular tool set out there would be profitable.


Guess I'll have to wait for some new product that makes use of both (say) MSEG and complex signal routing... oh well. I can live with what shows up.

[hakey]

Pardon me, I'm rather proud of that little sound I made so forgive me while I simply write you off as a whiner, Hakey.

Eh?

[pdxindy]

This is the power of rendered graphic interfaces... pdxindy would have a hard time matching even my rather raw syllabic effort (he being honest enough to admit that) because ADSR and standard wave forms can't go there. My hand drawn waves were walked through one by one using the multi point envelope. Impossible in to recreate in Bazzille... the tools aren't there.

Here, recreate this vocal sound in Zebra.

http://draigathar.org/sounds/Bazille3.wav


You really don't know what you are talking about Tom. The appearance of the GUI has no effect on the functionality. You could make Zebra be wired together like Bazille. You could make Bazille connect via drop down menus instead of cables. That would not change how either of them functioned or what sounds they are capable of.

Also, Bazille does have a multi point envelop of sorts, the sequencer. It can do things the Zebra MSEG cannot. And the Zebra MSEG can do things that the Bazille sequencer cannot. You see one as better, but that is only because you have not bothered to learn the other.

Modular can indeed achieve signal routing by simply allowing complex connections between components, but it is a CLASSIC, familiar approach. Urs describes it the same way above. I have no doubts it can make wild mutant sounds if one sits for hours experimenting.

Just because you would take hours sitting around experimenting to not accomplish something doesn't mean that is so for others. Your comment reflects on your lack of experience and unwillingness to learn, not on the synth.


Finally, you are advocating for a super synth with Bazille and Zebra added together. Urs could do that, and then nobody would be able to play a single note in realtime due to massive cpu use.

[TomTwohy]

Here, recreate this vocal sound in Zebra

Now why should I recreate some sound you made weeks ago when you STILL won't bother to even try to get Bazzilla to say "Bazzilla"?

It's kind of pointless anyway. You have such a hard-on for Bazzille, nothing can get past it. These sounds you keep posting probably come for some sound bank you hope to sell... yet I foolishly thought you would at least try. Oh well.

Also, Bazille does have a multi point envelop of sorts, the sequencer.

The Bazzilla sequencer can do some nice tricks, but you only get one... Zebras got 4 MSEGS plus the arpeggiator (no sequencer). Again, your points are off a bit.

Your comment reflects on your lack of experience and unwillingness to learn, not on the synth.

So what?

I told you I dislike the interface... the drooping patch cables, old school ADSR is lame enough... but the lack of guidance that goes with an unreleased product chills the whole process before it starts. I will revisit Bazzille when the manual and helpful tips show up (have a few patches from the U-he library to fiddle with).

I also have a good paid-for synth in Zebra and will probably buy dum-dum Diva next as it is WAY more useful for bass than digital sounding Bazzille EVER will... another factor you seem to oversell (it has no more bottom than Zebra to be honest).

Finally, you are advocating for a super synth with Bazille and Zebra added together. Urs could do that, and then nobody would be able to play a single note in realtime due to massive cpu use.

The MSEG is just a bit of code... including it in Bazzille wouldn't cause as much of a hit as (say) adding the Diva filters. It would cause layout headaches and not be "old school modular" esthetically. These modern features need space to be effective. So U-he isn't going to do it... ever... mores the pity.

There are nice things about Bazzille, unique things about Bazzille, but slogging through a euro-rack for more or less the same sonic turf as Zebra (which I'm still learning) is pointless.

I have a life and writing songs does not demand I learn 2 complex digital synths just to get some sounds I like.

[Fritze]

I also have a good paid-for synth in Zebra and will probably buy dum-dum Diva next as it is WAY more useful for bass than digital sounding Bazzille EVER will...

Cool way to go. To each their own. They all have their subjective strengths and we think that it's cool that they are as distinct as they are.

There are nice things about Bazzille, unique things about Bazzille, but slogging through a euro-rack for more or less the same sonic turf as Zebra (which I'm still learning) is pointless.

I have a life and writing songs does not demand I learn 2 complex digital synths just to get some sounds I like.

That's a good way to sum it up.
Wouldn't it be cool to just leave it at that?
Please guys, let's relax!
Beers/YourFavouriteDrinks are on me this round.

[TomTwohy]

To be frank, I am not so sure exactly why I complained so much, as I wrote the FISRT post recovering from major surgery... 24 hours after receiving powerful narcotics!

I was as drugged as an Old Rhino at the veterinarians.


Some of my points are viable... but HANDS DOWN the lack of documentation is the most relevant to anyone following this silly tirade.

What can be done in the short term for us Zebra heads?

As I've said I'm "Bazzilla-curious" ... does U-he have ideas for fun help docs?


Imagine I'm a young Dance Producer with a strong desire to be fashionable (maybe a Deadmau5 clone) and he's just downloaded Bazzille, or a forty year old guy with only so much time to play...

... what will U-he provide?

[Fritze]

... what will U-he provide?

Sorry, I really can't tell you right now. But this:

We do have big plans for Bazille, but they'll move her rather away from Zeebs... much further away

And somewhere else:

... so we have to use something else to show during Messe. Hence we're postponing Zebra3 a bit more to concentrate on some unfinished business (Diva arpeggiator, maybe a Bazille beta, maybe a saturation plugin)...

This could tell you something...


BTW: How's your health? Recovering good?

[justin3am]

but HANDS DOWN the lack of documentation is the most relevant to anyone following this silly tirade.

Bazille isn't even in beta yet. These are alpha builds of a synth that will see a commercial release one day. Urs made Bazille free to try for almost 4 years now. The fact there is any support beyond acknowledging bug reports is pretty surprising to me. I imagine that once Bazille is officially released it will have documentation and demo videos along the lines of what is available for Zebra, Diva, Ace, etc.

You keep making making broad unfounded statements about what is 'modern' and what is 'classic'... it only serves to show that you have no idea what you are talking about. Not everything needs to be dumbed down for the lowest common denominator.

Forgive me if this comes across as confrontational, it's not my intent. I understand the point you are trying to make, but you are not making your point effectively. It sounds like "I don't like this synth because I don't understand it."

Try spending some time with Reaktor. The documentation is vast and there are lots of tutorials and examples to start from. Once you understand how to build devices in that environment, maybe you will understand the appeal of a synth like Bazille. I mean, really, we all start somewhere. If it's not your goal to understand sound design at that level, that is fine too but it's important to understand that just because something doesn't work the way you want it to doesn't mean it's flawed. It just isn't for you.