Experiential discovery vs. formal training in music theory

[jancivil]

my first keyboard was one o' them Magnus chord organs, with little push-buttons for chords, sounded like an accordian.
My first compostions were pretty close to being out of nothing, but I'd been an almost passable rock drummer first. I didn't *know* anything except rhythm. It was basically musique concrete, found sounds and crude edits on a cheap cassette recorder.

By the time I was say 16, I knew how to form chords with extensions, jazz chords up the yin yang. I recognized the flat five substitute out of this little Mickey Baker booklet which didn't explain it, it just showed some hip voicings and where it lay on the guitar fretboard.
But: Cm7 11 (m3 and 11 one tone apart); Cb7 #11, the m7 moves down a semitone while F and G are kept, Bbm7 11, A7 #11 etc. (my father on one of his visits walks in and does "Oh yeah, that's Johnny Smith key")
Then I got the Tristan chord in a classroom and "OH SHIT!" Eureka moment. Comparing notes with this black guy in the Jazz Reharmo course next door. (I didn't have any keyboard ability, which was prerequisite)

I'm glad I had my ear together before Webb Wiggins' class at community college, my part-writing was fantastic (and pest that I am I talked myself into taking second year concurrently so I got the chromatic stuff right away before I knew what to hardly at all) I was fortunate to have absolutely stellar tutelage from then through when I had to get out and make a living, and school was out forEVAH

[N__K]

"the advice to refrain from telling of personal methods"
But that kind of strawmans something vurt said, doesn't it

Not too much, I hope

[...] so when we recognize that E, A, E, B A E is replicatable as C, F, C, G F C we're DOING MUSIC THEORY [...]

Yep, I would call that "doing music theory" in a sense.

Funnily enough, when I learned that progression "by ear" as a kid, I associated it with the term "50s rock music" or somesuch. I did not know the roman numerals etc., just realized that the pattern of those distance relationships on a keyboard (and pianoroll) sounds like that type of music, regardless of what key [of the board] they are started from.

So in a sense, I was "drawing my own map" or "doing personal re-discovery of music theory" then.

I suspect that if I had been taught it, I may have enjoyed it less. Via "personal re-discovery" it became fun - sort of like going into the woods and finding an interesting-looking bug and naming it oneself, as opposed to being taught about that bug in a class, including its pre-existing name.

As in, "mom look what I found! I call this a 'squiggly shiney creepy crawly'"

[jancivil]

Well, I was very happy for this guy I knew from around, Fuji, to show me the Foxy Lady #9 chord when I was 14 or so.
He showed it on E, so he seems to have got it by ear without checking, since the tune is 'in F#' (the fingering is very different, much easier on E). Don't recall if we called it anything but the Foxy Lady chord. I doubt I knew about that at that age.

[Hink]

Well, I was very happy for this guy I knew from around, Fuji, to show me the Foxy Lady #9 chord when I was 14 or so.
He showed it on E, so he seems to have got it by ear without checking, since the tune is 'in F#' (the fingering is very different, much easier on E). Don't recall if we called it anything but the Foxy Lady chord. I doubt I knew about that at that age.

Ok I was confused when I wrote the following, it was The Schafer family in Bedford, somehow they had a connection with Finney (I googled obviously and thought it was confirmed by the result being an obit from Bedford. We met Albert Finney at a performance center in Bedford when I was younger, he was with Mr Schafer and was known to Bedford. Apologies, senior moment...I was having trouble with the names, the teacher I had first name just didnt ring with Finney, it was Schafer.

That's a coincidence, our town had a family that was known for music and the patriarch was Albert Finney (apologies for that being an obit). They did a lot in our town, were involved in school music programs, the drama departments and such. In fact I can say with 100% honesty that Albert Finney saw at least one of my performances as Perchik from Fiddler on the Roof.

I have mentioned that back when I got my first electric guitar my mom stopped my guitar lessons because the teacher I had was teaching what in her eyes was useless and just stringing me along...that was blues bars. I took these lessons at a tiny little music store in Bedford Mass, owned by a son of Albert Finney, my mom being the socialite she was it was a different story if his son was my teacher soshe paid for lessons only if I took them from him. I would have been 13-15 then, he showed me the same thing, I had no fuzz so I took my old radio shack 8 track recorder (cartridge type), plugged it into my parents tube stereo's power amp (it was one of those big old RCA consoles, no tv) and pinged the meters...that is when I discovered what I called "the hendrix tone" not knowing what the fuzz was and pissed off my neighbors for the first time with a gi-tar

FTR those lessons were just me going to see him once a week, showing him what I could cop off records and he would show me the rest. Basically all he taught me was riffs, in fact the first riff he taught me was "Bitch" by the stones. This guy was far more a waste of money than the first, but it wasnt my money.

Eventually I bought an old Hagstrom II off of that guy, left for the army and have no idea what happened to him.

[N__K]

Don't recall if we called it anything but the Foxy Lady chord.

That reminds of how musical elements, sounds, etc. are often named by some association to a particular piece of music, genre, peculiarity of instrument or some cultural thing.

In one of my areas of experience, there are terms like "supersaw", "acid line", "full on bassline", "808" and so on. The deeper one goes into subgenres, the smaller is the group of people aware of such vocabularies.

Interestingly, in club/electronic scenes, I have not encountered much of their own terminology regarding harmonies, chord structures etc. - they seem more often relate to timbre, like "the Sandstorm sound" or whatever. Even though there are some things in some tracks that are perhaps "harmonically peculiar" enough to warrant a unique description. One such case could be the chord sequence in "Lemon Sol - Sunflash" (at about 5:28), more famously sampled in "LTJ Bukem - Horizons".

[vurt]

when i first got my guitar, signed up for lessons in school, wanted to do rock (well metal) so blues would have been a good start.
being presented with piano pieces, by the masters, was what put me off "formal training" for a while, as i wrongly assumed all formal training in guitar would be the same.
had i been a little older and wiser, i may have looked around for a decent teacher.

so all i had was local heroes, sharing licks, building the repertoire!
then realising, i don't really like being in bands

don't mind jamming with others, but the idea of playing the same songs, with the same people for years, just not for me

[vurt]

yes, and if someone is asking for example, in regards to passing an important exam, we may cost them percentage points by confusing the issue.

Another very good point.

That said, is it common for people to crowdsource solutions for their coursework or exams at forums? I would expect such answers to be easier to find in textbooks, as (hopefully) suggested by teachers of the course.

Also, from my experiences in schools, doing such things during exams was usually considered cheating. Albeit, that depends on specifics and may be allowed in some cases. And, it must be said, times have probably moved on...



In any case, personally I have always thought of general music forums - including music theory sections - as places to exchange ideas between music makers.
So I have to admit that the advice to refrain from telling of personal methods sounds to me as philosophically uncomfortable, on some levels - even though there are indeed cases where it is the right choice.

perhaps they wouldn't come for the exam specifically, but as they are learning, they may ask questions to clarify their learning.


and believe me, im as guilty as anyone, not singling anyone out.

[vurt]

A note to theoretical training vs wierdness/innovation. Sometimes it takes training to even know whether you are "innovative" or not.

this presupposes an intent to be weird or innovative.
my only intent, especially now, enjoy what im doing.
im sure some set out to innovate, but that looks like a struggle against tides, not for me.

not that im arguing against knowledge.
that's a separate issue.

[jancivil]

to be as clear, the thing Fuji showed me was at seventh position, E G# D Fx, fifth thru second strings. I didn't check it either. Hendrix is confusing because he liked to tune down AROUND a semitone, anyway (for the album Beyond the Status Quo by Gary Parra, we recorded a very straight cover of Manic Depression where I insisted on tuning to the record. Bad idea because the synth wouldn't stay tuned to it. Idiotic in more than one way, but it was a great warmup.). JH played the F# on the sixth string with his thumb and barres the E and "A" (Gx) with the ring finger. I cannot say why I hear the A# but he isn't fingering it. My hand does not do that, anyway. Lotta people believe you barre E and "A" with the little finger while doing F# and A# (a 10th above) with 1 & 2 (2nd fret barre or not).

[jancivil]

"an intent to be weird or innovative"
I began 'writing' in earnest because I had ideas of my own, strong opinions and a (nascent) whole worldview by this time. It wasn't about classical music and I was not feeling jazz improv or ii-V-I cycles and lines going round in clrcles (and frankly I can't swing, as they say in the trade). I however had as strong a grasp of late romantic harmony as anybody, including the post-bop harmony. So 'innovate' seems like a fatuous thing to claim to do (let others say it if it's true somehow) but I was about having my own voice, or I wouldn't have gone there. I was very influenced by the one composer I knew at CCM, who was an avant-garde composer who was amazing.

During the Overlook days at the Oak Street location we went all the way out there. I wish I had some of it, the answering machine tapes, "Beautiful music. ALL. DAY. LONG." People from work would call and get that, absolutely appalled.

for me in 1971 this was it:
to the redneck it's weird, ok. To most people. It isn't trying to be, that's just a word. I heard Frank really have at an interviewer for calling his music weird. "I think you're weird".

[jancivil]

"a struggle against tides"
None o' that means a thing to me, if I want to I can make perfectly accessible things. One thing I did quite a lot of was cover groups where we start off just doing the song and it veers off course in whatever way we were feeling. One of these was my both kinds of music project, country AND western. I lol'd when winstontaneous said that the other day.

[Synthack]

As much as I like those with technical knowledge, sometimes they can be annoying because they are so set in their ways that they leave no room to think outside the box. You know the kind, the people who like to point out how you're doing it wrong all the time.

Btw I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular here. I'm just giving an example.

Even if you are wrong, those who get all bent out of shape about it are a pain to be around. These people are probably best suited to be training classical musicians who demand excellence and that's fine. Personally if i had a choice i'd like to hang out with the self-taught rocknroll crowd and just have fun.

That said I do understand the importance of having a good grasp on musical theory.

[jancivil]

rock 'n roll is quite some box to be stuck inside, if thinking outside is the goal. that doesn't so much scan.
It's just a cliche to me in that context, 'think outside the box'. Is that annoying?
I think I prefer to hang out with people that want to genuinely engage in the conversation

[TribeOfHǫfuð]

"Sometimes it takes training to even know whether you are "innovative" or not." Not sometimes, this is how it is. If you aren't trained what are you innovating? Your own ass?
The notion one is going to do some sui generis shit out of nowhere is a bit of self-delusion afaic.

Being innovative and knowing you are need not be the same Jan, but I get the point and figure that guys like Aphex need trained people to tell them.

[jancivil]

Well, it's just a word. I didn't go around saying "I - dahnt da da dah - am going to INNOVATE"
it seems like I said a minute ago that's for someone else to gauge, I just do what I do. but the goal certainly was quite unlike wanting to trod the same ground done 8 quadrillion times already.