Bitwig 4.2 Beta Discussion

[j wazza]

Ok, some cool things definitely can be done using the new Poly->Mono Grid module!
This is the first time voices can have common (global) states.
Imagine building delay feedback paths between individual voices by using the "Sum" mode on audio signals. Or through summed envelopes the voices can detune each other. Also it's possible to determine the number of active voices by summing constant values set to 1.

Im not sure what you mean, do you mean having 1 note feeding into a delay, another note in another delay, and the delays feed into each other, but doing this with midi? you could already do a similar thing with audio delays but that could be cool
im not sure i understand the summed envelopes either and how this would make voices detune each other

[j wazza]

Nice to see the new features, but I think the reverb was the stock FX that most needed an overhaul. I just can't get it to sound as good as any of the free reverbs that I end up using.

I don't use their reverb much but using the tank fx or feedback fx in their delay, putting in some other reverb plugins, diffusion delays, convolution, de-esser, tape, distance simulators like 2c precedence or other plugins can make some really interesting reverbs.

sometimes i use the delay 4 and put 4 different reverbs on each delay then mess with the feedback matrix so they all feed into each other, that can sound cool too, very spacey with a lot of depth. You can combine different reverbs with different qualities to make your own reverb, such as eventide blackhole's dark deep far away sound with phoenixverbs airiness, valhalla's smoothness and the realism of a convolution.

this kind of flexibility is the main plus of bitwigs devices and bitwig in general, even though the sound quality from the start isnt great you can make it sound really good and unique with some experimenting

just thought of some more things ive gotten cool results from with the tank fx and feedback fx -
phasers, soundhack phasemash (fft vst that randomises phase of all frequencies and sounds a bit reverby). timestretchers like soundhack spiral stretch or lo fi af. tuned resonators like the free rift feedback, or a zero delay feedback like tb ferox.

I am in need of a device that would take an incoming midi signal that is a chord (or single note) and assign each note to different midi channels. Or a choice added to the Instrument Selector that would accomplish the same thing. The first idea is preferable because it is more flexible.

You can use a Note Selector.
Add a Channel Map device on layer 1... leave it at default. Duplicate the layer as many times as desired.
Channel Map on layer 2 set 1 -> 2
Channel Map on layer 3 set 1 -> 3
etc

Set the Note Selector to Round Robin.

i thought the note selector works based on when you start playing a new note? so if you play 3 notes at a time would it still work to select one of the channel maps for each note at the same time?

[UncleAge]

@ j wazza, In my short test the answer is yes. When the incoming chord had the same number of notes that I had layers in the Note FX Selector AND the choice was set to round-robin (and follow the rest that pdxindy layed out), the relative pitch of each note stayed assigned to the correct layer.

[xbitz]

and we can finally able to set velocity etc. freely to operators and able to remove elements too (always wanted to use them for risers/downers sweep effects)

I only miss MSEG now

[pdxindy]

i thought the note selector works based on when you start playing a new note? so if you play 3 notes at a time would it still work to select one of the channel maps for each note at the same time?

If you play a 3 note chord the round robin will advance 3 steps...

It would be useful to have a Selector mode where one can set a time limit and chords will be treated as a single note...

[pdxindy]

Thanks pdxindy. Almost works. If the number of notes in the chord are equal to or greater than the number of layers then it works. However, it starts to round-robin the layers if the number of notes in the incoming chord are less than the number of layers. In my situation that will be the case sometimes.

I'm not understanding your objective/use case...

no matter

[wentzelitis]

Nice to see the new features, but I think the reverb was the stock FX that most needed an overhaul. I just can't get it to sound as good as any of the free reverbs that I end up using.

i do agree. but i also do think reverbs are the most easy to find alternative (free or paid) . there are so many great free/cheap/paid reverbs out there. and the stock bitwig one can be really good, too if you put effort into it and combo it with other stuff.. but yeh on its own or the built in pre-sets are pretty lacking compared to other stock effects.

There are plenty of free and better sounding choruses etc fx as well (Valhalla stuff for example) so there isn't really any need for making these 'unless' you are going to have a full suite of top notch fx included

If that is the case it should start with reverb (and there should be convolution option like Live) as the main reason to have these 'rack' type fx is to be able to make racks that can be shared and/or self contained...without a good reverb that is very limited.

Personably I think these 3 FX are a bit of a waste of development time, another example of headlining with something not one single person asked for in any poll ever!

agree to disagree. i've found many free and cheap reverb plugins that sound great or have a bunch of unique features ..too many to keep track of. there's a ton. chorus however, most cheapies/freebies i've tried are a dud, and there's much less choice. depends how this new chorus sounds of course, but i'm more happy to have another good chorus option instead of a reverb that i probably won't ever use with my billion other options. also being able to use them in the grid i find chorus much for useful than reverb where i'd more often than not want on the bus/send or track personally.. and people are overlooking this grid functionality.

i agreed there should be a better stock reverb and it's a bit weak on its own compared to other effects in the post of mine you quoted, but there not being one isn't a big deal with the plethora of other options. also using it in the 'rack' in combination with other devices that can be saved/shared is where the reverb shines if anything..so I don't see an issue there. it's only weak when used on its own.

[apoclypse]

Nice to see the new features, but I think the reverb was the stock FX that most needed an overhaul. I just can't get it to sound as good as any of the free reverbs that I end up using.

i do agree. but i also do think reverbs are the most easy to find alternative (free or paid) . there are so many great free/cheap/paid reverbs out there. and the stock bitwig one can be really good, too if you put effort into it and combo it with other stuff.. but yeh on its own or the built in pre-sets are pretty lacking compared to other stock effects.

There are plenty of free and better sounding choruses etc fx as well (Valhalla stuff for example) so there isn't really any need for making these 'unless' you are going to have a full suite of top notch fx included

If that is the case it should start with reverb (and there should be convolution option like Live) as the main reason to have these 'rack' type fx is to be able to make racks that can be shared and/or self contained...without a good reverb that is very limited.

Personably I think these 3 FX are a bit of a waste of development time, another example of headlining with something not one single person asked for in any poll ever!

agree to disagree. i've found many free and cheap reverb plugins that sound great or have a bunch of unique features ..too many to keep track of. there's a ton. chorus however, most cheapies/freebies i've tried are a dud, and there's much less choice. depends how this new chorus sounds of course, but i'm more happy to have another good chorus option instead of a reverb that i probably won't ever use with my billion other options. also being able to use them in the grid i find chorus much for useful than reverb where i'd more often than not want on the bus/send or track personally.. and people are overlooking this grid functionality.

i agreed there should be a better stock reverb and it's a bit weak on its own compared to other effects in the post of mine you quoted, but there not being one isn't a big deal with the plethora of other options. also using it in the 'rack' in combination with other devices that can be saved/shared is where the reverb shines if anything..so I don't see an issue there. it's only weak when used on its own.

I can kind of agree with the OP though. They created three plugins that were already served with plugins they already have (even if they weren't that great) but there is no convolution reverb and there are other effects imo that would have been better suited for an update, like maybe a better compressor.

I don't know I'm finding Bitwig updates less and less relevant to my purposes with each release.

[u-u-u]

Ok, some cool things definitely can be done using the new Poly->Mono Grid module!
This is the first time voices can have common (global) states.
Imagine building delay feedback paths between individual voices by using the "Sum" mode on audio signals. Or through summed envelopes the voices can detune each other. Also it's possible to determine the number of active voices by summing constant values set to 1.

Im not sure what you mean, do you mean having 1 note feeding into a delay, another note in another delay, and the delays feed into each other, but doing this with midi? you could already do a similar thing with audio delays but that could be cool
im not sure i understand the summed envelopes either and how this would make voices detune each other

I actually didn't mean note feedback but audio feedback using the Long Delay module. As each Long Delay is per Voice we then e.g. could have one feedback path per voice. But if we add a Poly->Mono module in "Sum" mode somewhere we can feed in audio from and to all the other voices. But that's only the rough idea of a concept

The detuning was another concept idea. I tried it out now with my Sensel Morph with Drum Pad layout and instead of envelopes I used the pressure MPE expression for detuning. In detail: I sum the note pressure signals of all voices using a Poly->Mono module to get the "total pressure" of all played notes. This I use to detune the voices so that I get the same detuning effect as I would play a real hand drum (pressing with one hand on the membrane and tapping with the other will raise the pitch of the taps).
I attached a bitwig scene file + mp3 audio demo so you get an idea. (quantized the notes after recording them live + added an additional drum machine)

[UncleAge]

Thanks pdxindy. Almost works. If the number of notes in the chord are equal to or greater than the number of layers then it works. However, it starts to round-robin the layers if the number of notes in the incoming chord are less than the number of layers. In my situation that will be the case sometimes.

I'm not understanding your objective/use case...

no matter

I am not always that great at explaining things. Maybe this quick video will help highlight my use case.
https://vimeo.com/678511319

[wentzelitis]

Nice to see the new features, but I think the reverb was the stock FX that most needed an overhaul. I just can't get it to sound as good as any of the free reverbs that I end up using.

i do agree. but i also do think reverbs are the most easy to find alternative (free or paid) . there are so many great free/cheap/paid reverbs out there. and the stock bitwig one can be really good, too if you put effort into it and combo it with other stuff.. but yeh on its own or the built in pre-sets are pretty lacking compared to other stock effects.

There are plenty of free and better sounding choruses etc fx as well (Valhalla stuff for example) so there isn't really any need for making these 'unless' you are going to have a full suite of top notch fx included

If that is the case it should start with reverb (and there should be convolution option like Live) as the main reason to have these 'rack' type fx is to be able to make racks that can be shared and/or self contained...without a good reverb that is very limited.

Personably I think these 3 FX are a bit of a waste of development time, another example of headlining with something not one single person asked for in any poll ever!

agree to disagree. i've found many free and cheap reverb plugins that sound great or have a bunch of unique features ..too many to keep track of. there's a ton. chorus however, most cheapies/freebies i've tried are a dud, and there's much less choice. depends how this new chorus sounds of course, but i'm more happy to have another good chorus option instead of a reverb that i probably won't ever use with my billion other options. also being able to use them in the grid i find chorus much for useful than reverb where i'd more often than not want on the bus/send or track personally.. and people are overlooking this grid functionality.

i agreed there should be a better stock reverb and it's a bit weak on its own compared to other effects in the post of mine you quoted, but there not being one isn't a big deal with the plethora of other options. also using it in the 'rack' in combination with other devices that can be saved/shared is where the reverb shines if anything..so I don't see an issue there. it's only weak when used on its own.

I can kind of agree with the OP though. They created three plugins that were already served with plugins they already have (even if they weren't that great) but there is no convolution reverb and there are other effects imo that would have been better suited for an update, like maybe a better compressor.

I don't know I'm finding Bitwig updates less and less relevant to my purposes with each release.

i think bitwig's reasoning might have to do with the grid implementations which people are overlooking. a better compressor or reverb may be better as a standalone choice (though i personally think stock compressor is fine) .. but most people have those covered already via 3rd party. these 3 effects will be fun to use in the grid. it may have been their first use priority and purpose of making them even. might be easier and quicker to develop, too. but i'm just speculating. compressor and reverb would be less useful in the grid imo. though, at this point i do agree that if they make any more effects that it should be reverb, and hopefully with a grid implementation as well because why not.

[pdxindy]

I am not always that great at explaining things. Maybe this quick video will help highlight my use case.

That's clear enough... and you want the chord to 'start' at layer one each time regardless of how many notes and layers

There might be some way to do that in the new Note Grid, but it hurts my brain to think about it!

[UncleAge]

...and you want the chord to 'start' at layer one each time regardless of how many notes and layers

You get what i'm trying to say... For others tuning in keep in mind the video is basic. There are a few layers of things to add that would take things a few different directions. Like for instance, imagine a modulator in the Channel Filter that turns each channel on and off allowing for the bassline reacting to different channels. Just sayin...

[pdxindy]

i think bitwig's reasoning might have to do with the grid implementations which people are overlooking. a better compressor or reverb may be better as a standalone choice (though i personally think stock compressor is fine) .. but most people have those covered already via 3rd party. these 3 effects will be fun to use in the grid. it may have been their first use priority and purpose of making them even. might be easier and quicker to develop, too. but i'm just speculating. compressor and reverb would be less useful in the grid imo. though, at this point i do agree that if they make any more effects that it should be reverb, and hopefully with a grid implementation as well because why not.

Yes, this is something new in the Grid... complete FX modules.

And since VST's cannot be used in the Grid, even mono versions would be new capability, but Chorus+, Flanger+ and Phaser+ can also be polyphonic in the Grid. I spent a good bit of the day exploring that and they sound lovely and don't need much effort. The Grid just got better!

I also appreciate that the regular new devices take up less space in the device pane than their previous namesakes. They are compact, simple and sound good. To me it bodes well for future FX.

Of course if someone is not interested in the new stuff in recent updates they would have a different opinion, but I am quite pleased that in the past 9 months I have received 4.0, 4.1 and now 4.2. Together that is quite a lot of new goodies. The new Note Grid is going to be useful in quite few ways.

[j wazza]

these 3 effects will be fun to use in the grid. it may have been their first use priority and purpose of making them even. compressor and reverb would be less useful in the grid imo. though, at this point i do agree that if they make any more effects that it should be reverb, and hopefully with a grid implementation as well because why not.

agree that its useful to have these better quality modulation effects in the grid, generally the stock plugins need an improvement in sound quality so im all for it, the stock plugins are the most integrated with bitwig, you can do audio rate modulation on any of them even not in the grid, which doesnt work that well with third party plugins

i think a reverb in the grid would be useful but probably wouldnt use a compressor in the grid

but i also agree that id rather see new features like swing, msegs/drawable lfos, convolution reverb

I actually didn't mean note feedback but audio feedback using the Long Delay module. As each Long Delay is per Voice we then e.g. could have one feedback path per voice. But if we add a Poly->Mono module in "Sum" mode somewhere we can feed in audio from and to all the other voices. But that's only the rough idea of a concept

The detuning was another concept idea. I tried it out now with my Sensel Morph with Drum Pad layout and instead of envelopes I used the pressure MPE expression for detuning. In detail: I sum the note pressure signals of all voices using a Poly->Mono module to get the "total pressure" of all played notes. This I use to detune the voices so that I get the same detuning effect as I would play a real hand drum (pressing with one hand on the membrane and tapping with the other will raise the pitch of the taps).
I attached a bitwig scene file + mp3 audio demo so you get an idea. (quantized the notes after recording them live + added an additional drum machine)

this is interesting, i think the delay idea could be cool for making shimmering arps atmospheres, or for unison voices making a nice chorus ensemble thing. it would be great if they added the frequency shifter to the grid for this kind of thing

You really do not have to include everything back to adam and eve in each reply, you know?
Just edit out everything but the last quote, that keeps the tread much more readable...

Thanks!

Tom

haha done now