Spring reverb: what is the state of affairs in 2023?

[jens]

Sean Costello, who knows a thing or two about reverb, disagrees with you. I've heard him say (or rather read his posts on forums) that convolution is still the most accurate way to capture springs at present. This is evidenced by there presently being zero definitive physical models of a spring reverb that we can point to. I bolded that because well, there's no better proof than that. All modeled springs I've heard either do "one sound kind of ok" or are various degrees of bad. Convolution is [comparitively] the least bad option and definitely good enough for me. Though, I do think one day I'll build I reverb driver that I can hook some of my external tanks up to for real spring fun with non-guitar.

There was a post somewhere where Sean explained, it's not just the springs themselves moving aound and responding to the audio you'd have to model, but also the tiny imperfections in the shape of the springs where the direction of the audio will suddently flip and change direction, then hit another imperfection at a different spot and head back around, and this is all happening at extremely fast speeds many times over short distances. Modeling that would require a LOT of CPU cycles. Then what? Even if you could create a good model, you'd probably want to make an impulse of it just to make it usable from a CPU perspective (that's what Arturia did with their Plate model). And we're right back to convolution.

I an all seriousness: I really don't give much of a flying fart about what Sean says in regards to this for the simple fact that I know from first-hand experience that real spring reverbs react very dynamically to input and get brighter and twangier with increasing input.

This also is quite logical when you think about it. Did you ever try walking a rope?

So first you question the real-world experience of others and the moment someone disagrees with you you recommend to completely disregard such experience and trust somebody else instead because that person "knows a thing or two"? Really?


And by the way: there's really aenough algo-based spring-emulations which - while being far from perfect - I'd gladly take over any solely convo-based plugin.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

We're not talking about "are springs dynmic" the question is: is there a modeled spring plugin that actually sounds as close to a real spring as convolution? I've used all the spring plugins. The answer is no. Convolution has the fewest drawbacks at present and sounds the most realistic.

I've done the shoot-outs myself. Every single one of my convolution-based springs sounds like a real spring and I use diferent ones based on the sound. Every one of my many modeled plugin springs have way larger shortcomings and fall down in different areas. They don't sound good. More "spring-ish" than actually sounding like a real spring.

[jens]

But convolution can't sound any close to a real spring-reverb at all because it missed its most important function - that was my point. You're not at all a guitar-player, right?

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

You're not at all a guitar-player, right?

Let me quote myself...

I wonder how many folks in this thread use IRL spring reverbs on a regular basis and what types. I assure you based on lots of first-hand experience, convolution does a GREAT job with springs. It's still the best method for capturing them.

Also, spring tanks can sound very different. My idea of a spring, particularly for surf guitar (which is what the OP wants), is a type 4 spring tank. The kind that would've been found in Fender amps or their standalone spring reverbs (there's a reason there's a power outlet on the back of old Fender amps, they wanted you to plug your Fender reverb tank into it - then just kept it even after they added reverb to their own amps). Type 4's are long tanks, 2 springs and have lots of drip. It's a bright, splashy sound. Other tanks, like an 8, sound totally different. These sound murky. These have 3 springs in a short tank, there's less drip (if any). I had a type 3 in my Vox AC15, hated that (again, murky and not much drip), replaced it with a Type 4 and now I'm happy with it. I recently bought a Vibrolux Reverb and was really annoyed at the sound of the tank. Popped it open, there was a type 8 in there. Replaced it with an 30 year old Accutronics Type 4 and the amp sounds great again. Don't think I've ever used a Type 9. Studio springs can also be a bit of the wild west in that they can use different designs. That's where Audio Thing's Springs excels IMO. It's got so many of those.

I'm using springs daily here in guitar amps and I'm quite picky about them. When you want a classic guitar/Fender spring, IMO, only a Tye 4 will do. Marhsall-style murky spring, Type 8 or even a 3 as they can sound different. If you're used to real springs from a Space Echo or other studio gear, your idea about what a good spring should sound like may be completely different.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Jens, one day I'll do a spring reverb blind shoot-out with some surf guitar using all the different spring plugins I own and I'll be sure to point you to thread so you rate your favorites.

I think you're letting your pre-conceived "convolution isn't dynamic" bias clog your ears.

Also, what's your favorite "modeled spring" plugin and preset? Post it here. I probably own the plugin. I'll whip up some audio up in the next few days using one of my favorite convolution-based plugins (probably the Mixwave Benson) that completely sh*ts on it in terms of sounding like a real spring reverb.

[jens]

Then I really don't understand you at all - as a guitar-player the dynamic behaviour of the spring really becomes a part of the instrument basically.

Especially with surf they do that all the time. You just can't replicate that with convolution.

[jens]

I mentioned SpringBox on page two of this thread.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Especially with surf they do that all the time. You just can't replicate that with convolution.

That part convolution convolution captures well. Play percussive, palm muted stuff, and it drips. Play sustained, it doesn't. I don't know how it works but it does.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

I mentioned SpringBox on page two of this thread.

I have it. What settings? The only sound I kind of like out of that is the default setting. Move off that, and it's less good.

Also, if you have an iLok, start the Mixwave Benson demo and play guitar with it. Thank me later.

[jens]

Also, if you have an iLok, start the Mixwave Benson demo and play guitar with it. Thank me later.

Maybe - but from the description on the plugin page alone already it's easy to tell that this isn't just simple convolution at all:

Accurately modeled by using proprietary convolution response techniques to closely match how the two short and long spring tanks respond to a signal, specifically in regards to the clipping and distortion characteristics of the original unit.

So you are basically doing the best to disprove yourself here mate.

[jens]

I mentioned SpringBox on page two of this thread.

I have it. What settings? The only sound I kind of like out of that is the default setting. Move off that, and it's less good.

The default uses two springs - I prefer three...

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

If Benson is doing more than convolution, then good on 'em. It's the best Spring plugin. Their Milkman Harmonic Trem+Spring Reverb is good to but a little brighter than I prefer.

3 springs? Poppycock! I'm ride or die on Type 4. 2 spring long tanks or nothing!

[jens]

The plugin is most definitely doing more that just convolution, yes.

I'm more of a type 9 guy myself.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

The plugin is most definitely doing more that just convolution, yes.

I'm more of a type 9 guy myself.

Type 9's are the only ones I don't have any experience with in the real wold. Maybe one day I'll buy one and throw it in one of my amps just to check it out.

I'd also love to talk about why modern spring tanks sound like garbage compared to tanks from the 60s-90s. The new Accutronics+Belkins are nowhere near as good as the old Accurtronics. MOD tanks, which are probably the best of the current production stuff, have too long of a low decay (where a modern MOD medium Decay is still longer than the old Accutronics long decay). Did we change how springs are made? Are vintage springs just better than new springs? But that's a different thread.

[vurt]

rust.