Future of Windows in pro audio

[PAK]

It’s one Mac weirdo, let’s not over- egg it.
Personally I’ve made my peace with my proper slow Mac audio stack and don’t care what other folks use.

Still not as fast as ASIO

Cubase is ASIO on Mac. It was once seriously slower than it is today; it got better. I tend to doubt that this is because of ASIO improvements.

Everything on the Mac goes through Core Audio, including ASIO. Look inside the Cubase app bundle, in Contents/Components. There you’ll find coreaudio2asio.bundle, which is the translation layer. So it presents as ASIO, but is “really” just interfacing Core Audio.

Re Mr Soft Knees In terms of performance, even the ON-BOARD audio on a Mac Studio has a Headphone I/O Input latency of 0.896ms, and output of 2.250ms at 96kHz. For DAW usage an M5 will out-perform even the latest X3D processors core for core. A lot of opinions people seem to have, about this stuff, are out-dated at this point, and simply don't apply to the current hardware situation..

[mixtur.se]

Apple? Too many, “is x plugin compatible with the latest operating system?” complaints.

If there was some magical event that made all my software work natively in Linux… I’d probably switch, if there was a performance benefit.

Those Apple complaints are illegitimate in 2026. Any plugin that has been in active development within the past 5 years is compatible. The issue you’re talking about was temporary and way overblown, mostly by haters, due to Apple’s massive and hugely successful effort to move the entire ecosystem over to ARM. That work is done now, and the road ahead is sunny and smooth, as Apple is now positioned for the next 25 years. Microsoft has yet to make the hard decisions that will be necessary for a post x86 world.

So there was a magical event that made all of your software work natively in macOS, and there is also a performance benefit to Apple Silicon.

Yet an update seemed to be required whenever apple releases a new version of their OS. They compatibility quite a lot

[VitaminD]

It’s one Mac weirdo, let’s not over- egg it.

Personally I’ve made my peace with my proper slow Mac audio stack and don’t care what other folks use.

Still not as fast as ASIO

Cubase is ASIO on Mac. It was once seriously slower than it is today; it got better. I tend to doubt that this is because of ASIO improvements.

Outside of ASIO, as far as Cubase is concerned, it seems to perform notably better on Mac than it does Windows currently. That is the threading behavior seems more robust on Mac Cubase than it is on Windows Cubase, especially when you approach the limits.
Someone (either on the GS forums or the Steinberg forums) even dual booted on the same hardware between Windows and MacOS (with the same version of Cubase using the same project file) and there was an obvious advantage to using Cubase on MacOS with respect to how Cubase uses multithreading.

That coupled with the solid single core performance of the latest Mac CPUs, I'm pretty jealous at the moment on Windows side in Cubase (and personally detesting Macs otherwise).

I don't really care for the generic Mac vs Windows arguments. People will use what they will use based on their use case and personal considerations. That's fine.

[PAK]

Yet an update seemed to be required whenever apple releases a new version of their OS. They compatibility quite a lot

IMO This aspect is overstated, though not without foundation. Some of this impression likely stems from Logic Audio over the years. Being an Apple product the latest versions tend to be tied to the latest OS updates, and a lot of users seem to rush into updates. Cue “my plugin won’t validate” etc. Combined with the processor architecture transitions it’s definitely created a more “troublesome updates” impression amongst some.

The main reasons Windows has avoided this is because it hasn’t made the same transitions - And there’s TWO of them. The first is the more obvious move to ARM. This is still on-going and won’t actually be completed until the next Mac OS 27. The second one has been to remove ALL non-Apple code from the Kernel side and into User side code. This has resulted in changes to the Frameworks devs must use.

People can argue about the wisdom of any of this. But, ultimately, all that matters is that newer versions of Cubase have been running more stable for me, on Mac OS, than they do when using Windows, and there’s no issues with things like “core parking” tweaks simply to make low latency audio work properly

[PAK]

Less than 10% of Microsoft’s revenue now comes directly from Windows, and that’s shrinking every year. Present-day Microsoft views Windows purely as a means to an end. That end being to funnel as many users, as possible, into the place where most of their money is made - Online services. Everything else is secondary to these efforts.

If you don’t buy your Office 365 or XBox subscription? That’s ok. Microsoft are going to find other ways to monetise your online presence, even if it’s just adverts in file explorer or using your data input to train their AI. The ending of local accounts, for the most widely used consumer version of Windows, is simply an ongoing part of these efforts.

Apple also wants you to use its online services, but everything else ISN'T secondary to these efforts. A large part of its income still comes from the hardware it sells. You can certainly find plenty of reasons for why Apple aren’t exactly wonderful. Yet there’s no adverts in Finder, and it’s a lot less aggressive than Microsoft in terms of pushing things like OS updates or its AI etc. This, combined with the hardware, makes it a better choice for the average DAW user lately, IMO.

If there’s a shift towards Linux happening, it’s a fairly small and specific niche. The average person isn’t going to install a different OS even if they don’t like what Microsoft is doing. And, even if more technical users encourage / help friends and relatives to switch, it’s still unlikely to shift the needle more than 1 or 2% in terms of overall market share.

It would take Linux being pre-installed on machines to see a greater change. With Steams efforts, on the gaming side, there might actually be a chance of that happening - though it'd have to include PC makers and not just their "Steam Box". For DAW use? You’d really need a distro aimed at that niche, and which had support from a few more DAW software makers. Where’s a benevolent billionaire when you need one?

[eLawnMust]

Gill Bates is an honorary contributor to Linux... So you know where that will be going, but only when enough have switched over to Linux... Personally quite happy still on XP, can run all the old shit, some of which sounds as good as anything 'modern'... Like Z3TA+1 & 2, TA Dominator, Rapture, Spectral, etc... And at a fraction of RAM & CPU vs new...

[lfm]

Less than 10% of Microsoft’s revenue now comes directly from Windows, and that’s shrinking every year. Present-day Microsoft views Windows purely as a means to an end. That end being to funnel as many users, as possible, into the place where most of their money is made - Online services. Everything else is secondary to these efforts.

Most households probably do fine with smartphones and tablets these days.
- MS were way too late aquiring Nokia and doing Windows Phone stuff

But come to understand that gaming community on PC is huge.
- so large that game devs target those people more than console gamers
- new game update come out and they don't even say PC, it's self evident

MS is not so good at pickup on trends having their "ears to the ground"
- Xbox One should be the media center in households
- making gestures with hands and arms should be a big thing
- we know how that went

Since having first PC 1985 I will stay on PC for music making.

[kvotchin]

My experience with a Mac Mini M1, back in the early days of Apple M* production, was that damn, those machines are blazing fast, with ultra low latency. Also rock solid.

Despite going back to Windows after a while, and now on to Linux - possibly for good - yep, couldn’t help noticing how well suited modern Macs really seem to be, to creative pursuits. Like, the stereotype seems to exist for legit reasons, these days anyway.

Linux is also damn fast, and solid. But is there quite the range of software at the moment? No.

[dellboy]

Do Mac users not have an account with Apple?

Are they all using Mac local accounts?

Do you keep logged out and only log in when needed?

I own an iPhone and my wife has an iPad and I believe we are both permanently logged into our Apple accounts ( I must check later), so what is the difference with an Apple account and an MS account? Both are collecting telemetry and data. Is it just the level of data collection? Or mainly the marketing aspect?

[PAK]

Do Mac users not have an account with Apple? Are they all using Mac local accounts? Do you keep logged out and only log in when needed?

The computer and the Apple accounts are two distinct things. If you enable Find My it'll make you log in to the Apple account (to prevent device theft etc). Otherwise, it's used for Apple services. IE Apple App store, iCloud, iTunes etc. It's also used for things like Messenger and Facetime. Since most Apple users use Messenger, and many want to sync with their phone, a majority will choose to use the Apple account too.

Both are collecting telemetry and data. Is it just the level of data collection? Or mainly the marketing aspect?

There’s an actual difference. Apple’s on-device telemetry would make even Microsoft blush. It logs bloody everything, just so people know that bit. But the key here is “on-device”. Apple does actually allow a proper opt-out for multiple aspects of online Telemetry.

Pretty much every app that asks for certain access has permission switches. One of the aspects of Mac OS, some Windows users find annoying, is it does tend to ask for passwords more often (rather than just clicking ok.) Are they still scraping some info from apps? Probably. Is it on remotely the same scale as Microsoft provided you opt-out? No, It's not. That's one of the selling points for Apple’s devices. You usually pay more (maybe not so much in the case of the Mac mini these days.. ). In return the expectation is that device is the product, rather than YOU being the product..

[legendCNCD]

Re Mr Soft Knees In terms of performance, even the ON-BOARD audio on a Mac Studio has a Headphone I/O Input latency of 0.896ms, and output of 2.250ms at 96kHz. For DAW usage an M5 will out-perform even the latest X3D processors core for core. A lot of opinions people seem to have, about this stuff, are out-dated at this point, and simply don't apply to the current hardware situation..

Sure, it is much better now than it was back then, and .. uh, some MacOS version improved it a lot on ARM chips. But I do not think we have real measurement information ala back in the day we had Tafkat doing them (Windows7 was winning high back then, on ASIO, when CoreAudio just refused to do anything OR did it with heavy cpu usage)? I mean between OS's etc.

[legendCNCD]

Linux is also damn fast, and solid. But is there quite the range of software at the moment? No.

And is the audiostack as solid? No. Sometimes graphics updates break low latency audio badly.

[kvotchin]

In my experience, it is just as solid. Maybe I’m doing something wrong? :p

[legendCNCD]

Maybe it depends, like all in computing, from the phase of the moon...

[PAK]

Sure, it is much better now than it was back then, and .. uh, some MacOS version improved it a lot on ARM chips. But I do not think we have real measurement information ala back in the day we had Tafkat doing them (Windows7 was winning high back then, on ASIO, when CoreAudio just refused to do anything OR did it with heavy cpu usage)? I mean between OS's etc.

Well, the Usual Suspects do include a benchmark test with their emulators that’ll tell you how many instances can run on one core of your CPU. Can’t think of other plugins which include this though?

Performance is hugely variable between hosts and plugins, before you even get into hardware. Because of this generic benchmarks have always had limited value for DAW users - more than just about any other category I can think of. All I’d say is always treat such numbers with scepticism regardless of source, but especially if that source has a financial interest in a particular outcome.

In terms of x86-64 Vs Apple’s latest M-series, the difference on M5 is enough that pretty much any online source is mostly going to reflect faster single core scores. So it then becomes a question of the number of performance cores, the RAM amount / bandwidth, and the cost.

ARM’s advantage is not as related to the RISC aspect as many think. Lately, ARM’s instruction sets aren’t so reduced. What’s screwing X86-64 is its legacy requirements, not the least of which is variable instruction lengths. Done in a time where saving these few bytes might’ve made some sense, it now means a huge amount of logic, on X86-64, must be dedicated just to predicting where and when the instructions end! ARM uses fixed lengths, so it doesn’t have quite the same guesswork required!

IF ARM can keep scaling, as it has, then it opens the real possibility that translation layers, which run X86 code on ARM, could be faster than running the X86 code natively. If it can get to that point then it’ll potentially have some pretty big implications for the Windows side of things.