KVR Audio

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:46 pm

Urs wrote:Ok then. Maybe we buy some. Does anyone know if .wav exported from Gladiator or Icarus can be used & shipped with other products, e.g. soundbanks for Serum? Or do Tone2 somehow retain some kind of copyright on user created documents?

I don't see how they could "copyright" that. If they could, then any wave manipulated by any audio editor would be "copyrighted" to the authors of that same program. I know this "copyright" thing may be insane in some aspects, but even that has limits.

zvenx · Post by **zvenx** » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:50 pm

fmr wrote:
Urs wrote:Ok then. Maybe we buy some. Does anyone know if .wav exported from Gladiator or Icarus can be used & shipped with other products, e.g. soundbanks for Serum? Or do Tone2 somehow retain some kind of copyright on user created documents?
I don't see how they could "copyright" that. If they could, then any wave manipulated by any audio editor would be "copyrighted" to the authors of that same program. I know this "copyright" thing may be insane in some aspects, but even that has limits.

That's my thought process too.
rsp

flakes2 · Post by **flakes2** » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:14 pm

The synth uses MF2 files. They contain the waveform data. Most waveform data is not trivial content like a sawtooth. They were created in a creative process. The waveforms are then manipulated by rather complex algorithms. It is also not a trivial process.
If you check the exported output in a spectral editor you can see that there is a pretty unique frequency and phase response. In case of a juristic arguement a forensic analysis could proove that the origin of the sample is Gladiator.
Instead of just ripping Gladiator and then reusing the waveforms in 'own' products it would rather ask the copyright holder for a permission. Then you are on the Safe side

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:17 pm

flakes2 wrote:The synth uses MF2 files. They contain the waveform data. Most waveform data is not trivial content like a sawtooth. They were created in a creative process. The waveforms are then manipulated by rather complex algorithms. It is also not a trivial process.
If you check the exported output in a spectral editor you can see that there is a pretty unique frequency and phase response. In case of a juristic arguement a forensic analysis could proove that the origin of the sample is Gladiator.
Instead of just ripping Gladiator and then reusing the waveforms in 'own' products it would rather ask the copyright holder for a permission. Then you are on the Safe side

Wait, but the export is just to export the raw oscillator data, or the sound of the oscillator with the programmed modulations you programmed? I though it was the latter.

Anyway, I am with you in that it is "better safe than sorry"

zvenx · Post by **zvenx** » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:23 pm

I assume it was importing your own waves and processing them thru gladiator/icarus.

(Although now thinking about it, the import function of Gladiator was disabled at some point if I recall correctly or never implemented)

rsp

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:31 pm

flakes2 wrote:Urs: The license agreement of the Tone2 products does not allow a ripping or sampling of the product and a re-use for sample CDs or other commercial products. It can only be used for the production of songs. Everything that goes beyon requires a written permission from the copyright holder.

Why do you want to copy it? Why don't you create new and own ideas?

A-ha.

See, here's the difference between cool and gutless. Steve Duda gave us permission to create original wavetables in Serum and reuse them for commercial products without a blink. We asked simply because the waveform editor in Serum is the best out there.

We don't have any plans to "rip or sample" anyone's work, but we're checking out all solutions available on the market. We simply wish to add a comprehensive list of great and *compatible* waveform editors to an upcoming product, simply so sound designers can use the best tools available.

Apparently, if what you say is right (I bet you are!), Tone2 products use proprietary format which we have no intent to reverse engineer. Therefore Tone2 products, unlike Serum or WaveEdit, won't be on the list of "compatible" products and everyone can move on in peace.

- U

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:33 pm

zvenx wrote:I assume it was importing your own waves and processing them thru gladiator/icarus.

rsp

Gladiator doesn't import waves. It uses a kind of "spectrum synthesis", where a wave is modulated by several spectrum processes, including another waveform (at least, it's how I see it - Tone 2 calls that HCM synthesis).

zvenx · Post by **zvenx** » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:36 pm

fmr wrote:
zvenx wrote:I assume it was importing your own waves and processing them thru gladiator/icarus.

rsp
Gladiator doesn't import waves. It uses a kind of "spectrum synthesis", where a wave is modulated by several spectrum processes (at least, it's how I see it - Tone 2 calls that HCM synthesis.

Thanks.
Its it resynthesis functionality I was fuzzy on.

http://www.tone2.org/forum/index.php?topic=191.0

rsp

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:37 pm

Urs wrote:A-ha.

See, here's the difference between cool and gutless. Steve Duda gave us permission to create original wavetables in Serum and reuse them for commercial products without a blink. We asked simply because the waveform editor in Serum is the best out there.

Steve Duda is a very cool guy overall.

flakes2 · Post by **flakes2** » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:38 pm

ere is no real modulation possible in Gladiator at all. Thats why you can not assign the HCM modifiers as modulation targets. The wavetables which are outputted are always pre-processed in 'pseudo realtime' within a second or so

@zvenx: they released a free tool for the import function several years ago. The import function did not work well enough to be ported to the main product

http://www.tone2.org/forum/index.php?topic=197.0

The new re-synthesis function of Icarus is a lot better

fmr · Post by **fmr** » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:39 pm

zvenx wrote:
fmr wrote:
zvenx wrote:I assume it was importing your own waves and processing them thru gladiator/icarus.

rsp
Gladiator doesn't import waves. It uses a kind of "spectrum synthesis", where a wave is modulated by several spectrum processes (at least, it's how I see it - Tone 2 calls that HCM synthesis.
Thanks.
Its it resynthesis functionality I was fuzzy on.

http://www.tone2.org/forum/index.php?topic=191.0

rsp

Yes, resynthesis was thought as a feature to be implemented in the beginning, but never was, AFAIK. BTW, I think the function will only export the internal wavetables, because Gladiator has the oscillators in "pairs" (1-2, and 3-4) and what we see in the spectrum display is the result of the cross-modulation between the two and the different modulators. So, I think that the wav file exported will be just one of the Gladiator internal "wavetables", after all, not the final spectrum result (which would be much more interesting, IMO).

Am I missing something?

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:40 pm

flakes2 wrote:The synth uses MF2 files.

A bit of friendly advice: Maybe you should change

Added cross-product-compatibility: Save->'Export...' exports the sound of osc1 as an Icarus compatible wavetable in wav format

to

Added cross-product-compatibility: Save->'Export...' exports the sound of osc1 as an Icarus compatible wavetable in fm2 format

Otherwise it's pretty misleading as wav is a very well documented format. Can save you some headaches of pesky competitors assuming you did something useful.

zvenx · Post by **zvenx** » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:42 pm

zvenx wrote:
fmr wrote:
zvenx wrote:I assume it was importing your own waves and processing them thru gladiator/icarus.

rsp
Gladiator doesn't import waves. It uses a kind of "spectrum synthesis", where a wave is modulated by several spectrum processes (at least, it's how I see it - Tone 2 calls that HCM synthesis.
Thanks.
Its it resynthesis functionality I was fuzzy on.

http://www.tone2.org/forum/index.php?topic=191.0

rsp

This

http://www.tone2.org/forum/index.php?topic=196.0

rsp

zvenx · Post by **zvenx** » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:44 pm

flakes2 wrote:ere is no real modulation possible in Gladiator at all. Thats why you can not assign the HCM modifiers as modulation targets. The wavetables which are outputted are always pre-processed in 'pseudo realtime' within a second or so

@zvenx: they released a free tool for the import function several years ago. The import function did not work well enough to be ported to the main product

http://www.tone2.org/forum/index.php?topic=197.0

The new re-synthesis function of Icarus is a lot better

Now seeing this.... I added a link which I think may be this link after you posted this.
rsp

flakes2 · Post by **flakes2** » Sat Jun 30, 2018 1:52 pm

Urs:
why don't you simply move on? This thread is not about you or your products.
Why don't you respect the creative content produced by your competitors?
Would you be happy if your synth's graphics are ripped and photoshoped by a Chinese company?
Would you be happy if someone samples and clones a Song you have created and makes money with it?

Tone2 Gladiator 3 (public beta)