Why no DP/4 emulation?

[Karen-K]

I have a DP/4 but prefer to use software when possible for ease of recall etc. At one point I went through every phaser I had or could find to demo to see if I could find one that sounded close to the phaser in the DP/4. I also tried combinations of drive and bit reduction with those phasers.

By far the closest I could get in sound was using the melda phaser and setting it to match the DP/4’s 12 poles and high and low frequency range of the modulation. It has a lot of the same character but isn’t nearly as exact as I would like.

Valhalla delay has a DP/4 phaser mode that unfortunately sounds nothing like the real thing. He admitted on his blog that he never listened to the hardware and “didn’t try too hard” just made a phaser that matched the specs in the DP/4 manual.

If you’re on PC there is a free old smart electronix plugin called supaphaser that is about as close as you can get with the melda but it’s buggy and hard to run on modern Macs.

Another one worth mentioning is the phaser included in the Creative FX Collection from Air. It has a different tonality (clearly different parameters than the ensoniq) but somehow drives things similarly with a mojo that’s very reminiscent of the DP4.

I 100% agree with you !

I've been searching for a DP/4 phaser (aka Daft Punk phaser) sound in the VST world for years (decades in fact)

The best option is still SmartElectronix SupaPhaser but as you said it's not supported anymore.
I've bought/tested at least all big companies' VST phasers since 2000 (Soundtoys, D16, Valhalla, Melda, IL, BlueCat's, Tal, stock DAW vst to name a few) and nothing comes close to DP/4 preset.

It's more than just the number of poles and the delays... I'm not an engineer but all VST phasers miss something or introduce some "unexpected" problems:

1- On the original DP/4 you can "feel" the phaser effect in 3D. It's not just about phase and stereo placement; VST effects usually introduce some weird phase issues while switching to mono (yes, phasing fx introduces phase, I know ) the only developers doing it correctly to my ears are Soundtoys and Melda. otherwise, prepare yourself to use some M/S tools to keep the stereo field mono-compatible.
2- Saturation / drive / distortion. On the original unit, I think a part of the sound is linked to the A/D - D/A signal path (analog mixers and use of DP/4 as send/Aux). Once again VST fx totally miss the point of gain staging, input drive correlated to the effect's intensity
3- Delay (rates/time/wet level). To my ears, it's a part of the 3D sound of DP/4 phaser preset.
as the op said, "Valhalla Delay" tried to, but totally failed (I bought the FX only for that sound). Adding DDL to the preset list doesn't make it sounds good. meh (but it's very good at micro-pitching voices on the other hand)
4- Serial link of phaser and delay in the same program. I've tried to do it in modular environments (Voltage Modular, VAZ, patchers), nothing comes close.

I think this effect (at least this patch) is impossible to reach for 90% of devs. Remembered me of my quest to find a good LM-1 (VPROM) and SP-1200/ S950 sounds (SP950 / RX-950.
Maybe AlyJamesLab, Wavetracing or Inphonik can do the job ?

Want to hear DP/4 phaser in action ? check this video (DP/4 starts at 00:56)

Go back to the beginning of the video to hear how 3Dish the DP4 can sound.

[greententacle]

yes, phaser ist difficult in vst land. soundtoys almost got it right.

[kobal]

can you post a loop dry and one with the phazer on to try to match it

[jakke]

can you post a loop dry and one with the phazer on to try to match it

houseloop_dry.mp3
houseloop_phaser-ddl.mp3

I put the whole track through the effect with a dry/wet mix of about 40%. As a plot twist it's not actually the DP/4 but a VST/Reason RE of the phaser which I and a couple of other guys have been working on. I'll post more when there is more news.

[Karen-K]

can you post a loop dry and one with the phazer on to try to match it

houseloop_dry.mp3
houseloop_phaser-ddl.mp3

I put the whole track through the effect with a dry/wet mix of about 40%. As a plot twist it's not actually the DP/4 but a VST/Reason RE of the phaser which I and a couple of other guys have been working on. I'll post more when there is more news.

Sounds really good to my ears (I'm on my laptop right now).
Is the sound 40% dry or 40%wet ? May change my idea of how much you can "phase" the original signal.
The mix of feedback+resonance is very similar to the SE SupaPhaser VST. I'm curious about hearing more from this.
Also, it seems the "3Dish" sound isn't there yet, meaning it doesn't completely catch the stereo wideness of DP/4. I can't check the MP3 file in an audio editor or do the mono conversion now, but I'll do it later.
@Jakke : Do you plan to release a commercial VST version ?
Tell us if you need some alpha/beta testing.

[kobal]

can you post a loop dry and one with the phazer on to try to match it

houseloop_dry.mp3
houseloop_phaser-ddl.mp3

I put the whole track through the effect with a dry/wet mix of about 40%. As a plot twist it's not actually the DP/4 but a VST/Reason RE of the phaser which I and a couple of other guys have been working on. I'll post more when there is more news.

sound good ! keep us updated if anyone can run the loop into dp4 as well just to hear the caractere

[jakke]

houseloop_dry.mp3
houseloop_phaser-ddl.mp3

I put the whole track through the effect with a dry/wet mix of about 40%. As a plot twist it's not actually the DP/4 but a VST/Reason RE of the phaser which I and a couple of other guys have been working on. I'll post more when there is more news.

Sounds really good to my ears (I'm on my laptop right now).
Is the sound 40% dry or 40%wet ? May change my idea of how much you can "phase" the original signal.
The mix of feedback+resonance is very similar to the SE SupaPhaser VST. I'm curious about hearing more from this.
Also, it seems the "3Dish" sound isn't there yet, meaning it doesn't completely catch the stereo wideness of DP/4. I can't check the MP3 file in an audio editor or do the mono conversion now, but I'll do it later.
@Jakke : Do you plan to release a commercial VST version ?
Tell us if you need some alpha/beta testing.

It was 40% wet. I wanted to leave some of the dry signal in there instead of drowning the whole thing in the phaser.

Yes, I'm planning on releasing the plugin commercially, eventually. I'll shout if/when I need any testers.

sound good ! keep us updated if anyone can run the loop into dp4 as well just to hear the caractere

Thanks, will do!

I ran some mono white noise through both the plugin and the DP/4 fully wet. I attempted to match the parameters and the LFO phase offset of both most of the way there, but they aren't exactly cancellable:

whitenoise_wet_dp4.wav
whitenoise_wet_plugin.wav

[kobal]

thanks , it seems the plugin is slighty less bright, or maybe it is quieter, it feel like there is a low pass filter on the top end

[jakke]

thanks , it seems the plugin is slighty less bright, or maybe it is quieter, it feel like there is a low pass filter on the top end

I matched the volume by ear, seems like I was off by about 1 dB. I boosted the plugin track by 1 dB and took the frequency responses of each channel separately. Green graph is the DP/4, red one is the plugin.

Left channel:

green_dp4__red_plugin__left_ch.png

Right channel:

green_dp4__red_plugin__right_ch.png

It's not perfect by any means, there seems to be slightly less energy around 7-12 kHz in the plugin.

[Lucastyle]

houseloop_dry.mp3
houseloop_phaser-ddl.mp3

I put the whole track through the effect with a dry/wet mix of about 40%. As a plot twist it's not actually the DP/4 but a VST/Reason RE of the phaser which I and a couple of other guys have been working on. I'll post more when there is more news.

Sounds really good to my ears (I'm on my laptop right now).
Is the sound 40% dry or 40%wet ? May change my idea of how much you can "phase" the original signal.
The mix of feedback+resonance is very similar to the SE SupaPhaser VST. I'm curious about hearing more from this.
Also, it seems the "3Dish" sound isn't there yet, meaning it doesn't completely catch the stereo wideness of DP/4. I can't check the MP3 file in an audio editor or do the mono conversion now, but I'll do it later.
@Jakke : Do you plan to release a commercial VST version ?
Tell us if you need some alpha/beta testing.

It was 40% wet. I wanted to leave some of the dry signal in there instead of drowning the whole thing in the phaser.

Yes, I'm planning on releasing the plugin commercially, eventually. I'll shout if/when I need any testers.

sound good ! keep us updated if anyone can run the loop into dp4 as well just to hear the caractere

Thanks, will do!

I ran some mono white noise through both the plugin and the DP/4 fully wet. I attempted to match the parameters and the LFO phase offset of both most of the way there, but they aren't exactly cancellable:

whitenoise_wet_dp4.wav
whitenoise_wet_plugin.wav

Awesome job, just a question could you pass this file through the DP/4 and the plugin fully wet as it can help us see the behavior of the unit with a lot more detail than white noise.

Dirac.wav

[kobal]

thanks , it seems the plugin is slighty less bright, or maybe it is quieter, it feel like there is a low pass filter on the top end

I matched the volume by ear, seems like I was off by about 1 dB. I boosted the plugin track by 1 dB and took the frequency responses of each channel separately. Green graph is the DP/4, red one is the plugin.

Left channel:
green_dp4__red_plugin__left_ch.png


Right channel:
green_dp4__red_plugin__right_ch.png


It's not perfect by any means, there seems to be slightly less energy around 7-12 kHz in the plugin.

look almost identical ! it was probably just the level difference but maybe also the 7/12 khz range but it look very minimal, nice !

[jakke]

Awesome job, just a question could you pass this file through the DP/4 and the plugin fully wet as it can help us see the behavior of the unit with a lot more detail than white noise.

Dirac.wav

Thanks!

Dirac_dp4.wav
Dirac_plugin.wav

I set the delay feedback to 0 for this one. It's pretty much impossible to get the modulation phase aligned perfectly, especially when the LFO rates aren't a 100% match. Anyhow.

[Lucastyle]

Awesome, is this with the delay on? cause I'm seeing dual peaks in the phasers notches, but from what I can tell the plugin looks super close, like 99% close.

Even the differences between left and right channel are spot on, which I recon that this might be the reason that other users where saying that the DP4 gave a sort of "3d" "open" feeling.

King of crazy modulation behavior also, it seems that it is sine wave but its biased towards one polarity and the modulation center Is really high.

This unit clearly has a lot of character.

Best regards.

[jakke]

Awesome, is this with the delay on? cause I'me being dual peaks in the phasers nothes

Whenever the delay feedback is set to 0, the delay is effectively disabled.

[stk]

My DP/4 was as noisy as hell and, for me, it only made sense while I had an ASR-10, for which it was primarily made. I don't recall there being anything particularly special about it otherwise.

I have to concur. I used one extensively in the mid-late 90s. At the time it was impressive, given the other options a starving musician had at the time (Quadraverb etc).
But these days.. just chain up some Valhalla and smile.

I would be interested in an emulation, but mainly out of casual interest. It's always had a bit of a cultish following, which has only fed the hype.