FinalMix compared to?

[Watto]

Good work, Lunch! Now I feel better.

Although my argumentative side wishes to point out that his second post (with the pro reference) was referring to the difference between multiband and fullband compression, not comparing Final Mix to a pro mastering studio... as I read it.

[Lunch Money]

You could be right. I was more concentrating on the reference to the pro studio (the last line, and if you know rhetoric you'll know that there's a recency and primacy effect and that the stuff in the middle takes less importance), and that's what I referred to in subsequent posts-- in fact, if you continue reading, you'll note that I never DID argue much about single-band vs. multi-band because I frankly don't have the expertise. I even conceded that he might have a point, because NOT conceding it would have meant I'd have to do my OWN research, and I couldn't have been arsed. <laff>

And, although hindsight is 20/20, he DID ultimately agree (or give up because we're hard-headed bastards) that he was thinking more in terms of 'pro' results.

-->edited to include the 'hard headed' and 'primacy/recency' bits

[Watto]

lol - me too!

[Frippertronix]

Kingston, isn't Soniformer 2 a "massively multiband" compressor? If multiband compression on a stereo master is bad, why isn't Soniformer bad as well?

Why would you use a 3 band comp on an instrument track and not on a mixdown? Are the phase artifacts not a problem on individual tracks?

I think it's reasonable to state that this kind of plugin (FM and Soniformer both, as well as multiband "maximizers" like Dynasone and TLs Maximizer) are kind of "Swiss army knife" solutions and a more complex per-track processing approach is probably better, but in the end I think if you run your take trough FinalMix or if you run it through FinalFart or you run it through SnotSlurper One and it gives you an intersting result, why not use it? The beauty of DAW's is that they allow for many variations with relative ease, so different mixes can be explored.

I agree the FinalMix has a certain effect on the sound and may not work for some people. It is certainly not a "perfect" mastering solution, just one option for a certain effect. Some people love what Spectra Live does for their sound and I don't really care for it at all.

[Kingston]

Kingston, isn't Soniformer 2 a "massively multiband" compressor? If multiband compression on a stereo master is bad, why isn't Soniformer bad as well?

Why would you use a 3 band comp on an instrument track and not on a mixdown? Are the phase artifacts not a problem on individual tracks?

Hi,

Any multiband comp to date was based on crossover filters with several compressors implementation. These crossovers have phase artifacts, or errors, due to the bands literally overlapping on the crossover points. With linear phase crossover you would have preringing artifacts instead. In essence, this kind of multiband comp is always a compromise. Yes, even if it was fully analog and on the expensive sonalksis multiband. And yes, you can definetely hear these things. They are even easier to spot on full mixes than on individual tracks.

The previous explanation is scientific enough, but I keep forgetting that it's not exactly common knowledge here in KVR (but it should be). Just because we lack an objective scale to measure these things (filters, compression), it doesn't mean that these things aren't there. Sure my posts look like opinions, but the factual matter is there for learned ears. (and there was a finaliser/finalmix/behringer history lesson there as well) I'm sorry, but the harsh tone of my posts wasn't just opinions.




Soniformer could be considered the ultimate multiband, but it's not a traditional implementation at all. I asked Aleksey about it, but of course he wouldn't tell me his trade secrets. I've no idea how he did it (tho I could make educated guesses), but soniformer is devoid of phase smearing. Hence the recommendation.


3 band comp on an instrument track and not on a mixdown? Are the phase artifacts not a problem on individual tracks?

You aswered the question yourself. The smearing is still there, just more difficult to spot, and you could in isolated cases even take advantage of it. Sometimes you need that extremely shrink wrapped squash or dynamics control as an effect. With vocals, you can de-ess with a multiband while you're compressing the rest as well. Cleanish guitars are a good multiband experimantation ground. Unless you're doing tarnce, multibands might actually do more damage on drumbusses.


Although here we completely enter the subjective territory, there's the aesthetic consideration as well. Are you willing to sacrifice the punch, slap and oomph (etc) of a good singleband compressor just to get the tight, undynamic and controlled (ie. boring) multiband sound.

[Kingston]

*sigh*

It's almost a rule that if I ever enter a conversation in KVR I soon have to write in a tutorial on the subject to keep all the misunderstandings at bay.

[darcyb62]

*sigh*

It's almost a rule that if I ever enter a conversation in KVR I soon have to write in a tutorial on the subject to keep all the misunderstandings at bay.

As a casual observer to this thread and categorizing myslef as a hobbyist, I have found this thread extremely interesting and I really do appreciate that some people take the time to explain this type of stuff in greater detail and context. I have learned something from all this, and now the question for me is how do apply what I have learnt.

Cheers...

[Lunch Money]

Kingston:

- You might be right... it might be TRUE that you practically need to write a mini-tutorial to keep misunderstandings at bay.

- On the other hand, you might ALSO wish to reconsider your somewhat down-looking attitude. I mean, that whole last post of yours was at least 50% a 'dig' at people, implying that you know everything (you certainly know more than me, I'm not debating that!) and that everybody else at KvR must know nothing (OK, so you know more than me, but that doesn't make me an idiot).

For the record, and I can't speak for anyone else, I never doubted that there could be audible artifacts. In the absence of more information, I just "gave" you that point. That doesn't mean I'm going to take everything else at face value, though, just because you're a brilliant world-class engineer who's getting phonecalls by the thousands from studios that want you to master their mixes; nor because I'm a hobbyist with less-than stellar equipment.

Whether you're right or not, what you REALLY need to do is get over yourself before you post at KvR. The "girding yourself" for being "forced" to unleash a mini-tutorial upon the ignorant masses is really only the second thing you need to do.

You offered your first response, "I think it's crap and I wouldn't use it" more or less (despite your tone-- hey, we're all allowed to be ourselves at least, and you're more Gilbert Gottfried than Gilbert and Sullivan) in the spirit of trying to warn people. That's helpful. Then some of your follow-up information was helpful (darcy, for example, specifically mentioned that part of what you said educated him!), which is fair enough. You weren't expected to "buckle" just because people like me are skeptical. BUT, the reason for being at a forum, and the reason for posting to threads like this one (any thread which is supposed to be sharing of information and not just socializing) is completely and solely for the purpose of helping people and educating them, or on the opposite side, being educated.

Sometimes people refuse to be educated. Despite arguing, I know that I, for one, am now not only skeptical of people who claim factual information without substantial evidence, but I'm ALSO a bit more skeptical of multi-band compression over a whole mix. I'll at least listen more carefully to my final mix next time, and this is thanks to the information you shared.

Back to the point, though-- some people on a forum WILL fail to be educated. I didn't see any on this thread (questioning information is a part of being educated), but it happens. Those people are failing in their job. But you can't assume the role of an educator and then complain about having to educate someone. It's like becoming a baker and getting annoyed at all these damn customers who want to buy a loaf of bread.

If you're going to educate people, educate them with a bit of dignity and respect. If you're just trying to show that you know something that someone else doesn't know, then better to not bother. Either way, the thread would be better for it. Imagine if you will-- you shared EXACTLY the same information that you've already shared, but made a conscious decision to not include those occasional pot-shots at people. Not only would the thread be more streamlined and friendly, but I bet YOU would even feel better about it, though I can't say for sure.

You might be the expert in sound design, but I think I'll claim a bit of expertise of my own here, which is in the realm of communication and education. And it's rare that I've been in a thread to which you're a major contributor that I haven't noticed this same elitist attitude over and over again. And the thing is, I know you're probably not really like that. You've got too much soul to be a posh elitist. It's not necessarily (hey, I don't know for sure) really a failure of character after all, but a shortcoming in the roles of educator and communicator.

Thanks for at least offering the other side, though. Pretty hard for there to be an education otherwise.

Greg

[edited because somehow, despite this being a MAJOR pet peeve, I put "their" instead of "there" in the last sentence!!]

[SuitcaseOfLizards]

It's always interesting to read this stuff, although of course being a home-based hobbyist it's strictly academic for me! I s'pose if I were a member of the AES or something I might be more prone to unloading on everyone, but why bother?

If I can't hear a problem, and nobody that listens to my music can hear a problem, then there isn't a problem (lol)!

There's no need to lecture, simply point folks to appropriate online/offline resources to learn on their own and the interested will take the time to educate themselves, thus sparing you the bother of writing so much, and sparing the disinterested the effort of reading it.

[IIRs]

.. if Kingston knew as much as he pretends to, his mixes would be so good they would need no further processing.. much of what he says is correct, but suggesting that Final Mix is useless on that basis is like claiming that all cars which lack fuel injection should be immediately scrapped. (oh well, best analogy I could think of off the top of my head )

[rockstar_not]

*sigh*

It's almost a rule that if I ever enter a conversation in KVR I soon have to write in a tutorial on the subject to keep all the misunderstandings at bay.

Normally, I try to be civil on KVR, but this kind of response requires more than just Greg's very kind tsk, tsk.

Maybe we should all change our signatures to:


"Teach us, oh wise Kingston. We the unwashed masses await the pearls of wisdom to drip from your lips."


Please. Take Lunch Money's advice. You may know DSP. I've had a few graduate level classes in it myself. I can't say that I have tied the book knowledge together tightly with ear training - as the DSP courses were primarily focused on telecommunications, but man - lay off the "I'm smart and you're not" kind of talk.

Lunch knows how to respond to forum threads to avoid sounding like a self-proclaimed God as it has come across in this thread.

-Scott

[Kingston]

Lunch Money and the rest of you, you're on the most part right and have plenty of good points.

I have to disappoint you tho, I really am an elitist posh bastard when it comes to mixing. I'm definitely not like that when dealing with people in real life, but here on KVR the general forum babble brings the worst out of me. I come here to discuss and compare audio related stuff.

When I can't do that and end up having to explain the backgrounds on every point I make, l33tism rears its ugly head to the extent of trolling. It's unfortunate, but KVR is the closest thing to 'l33t digital mixing and production forum' on the net and I like to kill time here every now and then.

Then there is the educator in me: when I see that people are agreeing on something that's totally wrong in my experience, I get frustrated. What I'd really like to do is come and show how it's supposed to be done (and write that damn tutorial). What comes out most of the time is merciless n00b bashing.

Apologies.

[chance11]

You said that "you would like to come in and show how it is SUPPOSED TO BE DONE", gives the impression that everyone here knows nothing. You talk about the educator in you, but where is the student in you. In my 50+ years recording there is still so much to learn. With your attitude tho, I would avoid listening to because I myself had that kind of attitude when I first started in this bussiness, and when I started listening more and talking less, I gained more knowledge and my reputation gained in credibility.

[jmh]

.. if Kingston knew as much as he pretends to, his mixes would be so good they would need no further processing..

They are - haven't heard better stuff from a KVRian so far, and with each progressive step the gap is widening (which only goes to show that I've yet to hear stuff from so many "I'm a professional" types with words as big as a mountain on every subject - whereas the only few really good, enjoyable things I've heard is from people whose post count is minimal and most posts are links to music...)

Plus he's a perfectionist, which pretty much means he'll never be truly satisfied with the results - until that one day when he can afford to go all analogue when it comes to sound processing

Highly off topic, I know, just couldn't resist this opportunity.

And Kingston... tsk tsk tsk

Regards,

JMH

[DWS]

I have to disappoint you tho, I really am an elitist posh bastard when it comes to mixing.

Kingston, what are your credentials? Can you post some links of CD's for sale that you have mixed? It sounds like you do this for a living (or professionally) so there must be something on Itunes or somewhere that we can hear?

thx!

Here's a link to my release (done with T1)
http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZSt ... ont=143441