Zebra 3 Public Beta Revision 20399

[Urs]

I actually think the way Avenger shows a context popup of all used moduators on a knob on right click, in which you also can remove modulators again, such similar thing is currently missing in Zebra 3.

Been experimenting with that:

[ffx]

Been experimenting with that:

Looks already very useful, but why are you using the system context menu?
I think a simple [x] next to the modulator to remove it, and then only a single list for overview, would be much more easy to use. Using sub-menus might be not a good idea, even regarding accessibility...?

A gui drawn popup menu could even visualize the current modulation value of each attached modulator...

[Urs]

Looks already very useful, but why are you using the system context menu?

Because system context menus are reliable and just work.

We have spent a year or two on a project to convert all pop ups and dialogs into system windows because of the problems that self made pop ups, text fields etc. pose.

[ffx]

I see, well can you draw "custom" graphics in such a context menu? Or two buttons in the same row? I think I#ve seen that in other macos apps, but no idea if that then is cross platform compatible?

[Urs]

I am afraid that many of these concepts play out their strengths in worst case scenarios, which may not apply to Zebra 3.

If the most common number of modulations on a knob is around or below 2, I'm not so sure a third, more complex way (but certainly comfortable with 3+ assignments) to achieve yet the same thing again (Mod Matrix) is desirable. Particularly if it potentially hides the direct modulation slots.

For now, Zebra 3 has a classic Mod Matrix to support its concept of direct modulations. The Mod Matrix has become more important than in Z2, so I agree that we need to reduce the scavenger hunt and make on-target administration more comfortable.

But I do not yet see a need to rework the concept as a whole. Our user base knows it from Z2 and from Hive, and it has worked well.

As for a correlation of hyperactive UIs and products success, as suggested in some posts before, in my experience the correlation is reciprocal. In my experience the most successful products have no visualisation of modulation at all.

[E_Anderson]

Spectral Noise sounds so nice. Is there a chance we could have an option to map its depth using Guides (or curves)? It might be fun to experiment with more or less of its effect at given parts of the spectrum, as well as perhaps the addition of a speed parameter (if that applies to the way it processes?).

[Urs]

Spectral Noise sounds so nice. Is there a chance we could have an option to map its depth using Guides (or curves)? It might be fun to experiment with more or less of its effect at given parts of the spectrum, as well as perhaps the addition of a speed parameter (if that applies to the way it processes?).

I like the idea, but the implementation for such an experiment would take a lot of time and resources. Maybe we can try it some time next year, not sure.

[stippenstoh]

Been experimenting with that:

I like it, right-click is king.

It does not give an overview of all actions going on in a patch, so this, combined with your flow chart idea, may already cover all (my personal) information needs with a rather small footprint.

[Urs]

Been experimenting with that:

I like it, right-click is king.

It does not give an overview of all actions going on in a patch, so this, combined with your flow chart idea, may already cover all (my personal) information needs with a rather small footprint.

You get a lot of overview by leaving an indicator on each knob or fader that there is an underlying modulation. That's already a lot better than having no indicators at all. (Note: The final design is up to our UI/UX team... I just left a fainter dot for now)

It's definitely also faster than Serum 1 in the sense that if you want to see what's attached to a knob, you can directly select it. You don't first have to find the Modulation Assigner (the thing that holds the pip to drag) before you can start editing.

[stippenstoh]

You get a lot of overview by leaving an indicator on each knob or fader that there is an underlying modulation.

Oh if that's planned that's great, right now indicators disappear as soon as you're not engaging with the module anymore.

I just left a fainter dot for now)

Imo that - or similar - is all it needs, no visual overloading.

you can directly select it. You don't first have to find the Modulation Assigner (the thing that holds the pip to drag) before you can start editing.

That is a huge improvement imo.

Still, if a patch has e.g. 10 indicators, it would take right-clicking them all (or most) to get an overall picture. That's why I still like your flow chart idea.

EDIT: but right-click + permanent indicators already cover a lot of ground imo.

[atmelcool]

Urs, thank you for having feedback from end users; it's invaluable! Not every manufacturer has user feedback. It's clear that many people are involved and there are many opinions, and it's impossible to please everyone. Maybe we should take the ideas that get the most approval? Thank you.

[wilx]

Since we're back on modulation and good intuitive design & feedback, I'll bump this - definitely check out Equator 2, I think it's really nicely done.

Lots of chatter about modulation and visualisation - which comes up a lot.

My take on it is:

Hardcore synth programmers probably aren't that bothered about it.
Busy composers who use dozens of synths and plugins daily care deeply about it and need the most intuitive, well-designed interfaces to the point of choosing an intuitive plugin over a better-sounding one if it does what they need in 2 minutes rather than 10.

There are a lot of good examples of visualisation done well. My favourite two (which use different approaches) are Logic's Alchemy and Equator 2. Pigments and Serum (2) are nice too, but I think especially Pigments is too much visual overload for some.

I imagine Equator 2's approach is slightly more in line with Urs' philosophy then Alchemy's, but I would encourage the team to check out both and see how useful it is to see this stuff at a glance if you're a busy composer/producer who needs to *quickly* work out what that pulsing element is. Cutoff? FM amount? Sub osc volume? Overdrive? And is it modulated by an MSEG? LFO? If so, which one?

The synths that show this cleanly and clearly get the most use from me.

Right-clicking on a module or knob and instantly seeing what it modulates, or what's modulating it, and by how much, with the ability to instantly change those values, would be excellent.

[Matty686]

Question Urs do you think there's any chance release velocity will end up in the first paid release. if not can you reassure me its still on your todo list. its the main way I plan to make Mono lead synths using zebra 3. I am a tad anxious about it still as I am still mapping out the possibility space of how I am going to use zebra 3 in the long run. mainly if I can count on release velocity or if I should be planning to use pressure as my main articulator. pressure is much harder to hand compose on the piano roll as I said before. I'm really just trying to manage my expectations.

I can not promise that Release Velocity will be implemented in Zebra 3.0. But I am confident it will be implemented in 3.1.

thank you so I will move according to the release velocity path thank you for helping me collapse the posibility space.

[Urs]

Since we're back on modulation and good intuitive design & feedback, I'll bump this - definitely check out Equator 2, I think it's really nicely done.

So, I totally understand the wish to have that. I see this as a great option to clear the head for very straight forward modulation.

So from the source side, I think that the ModMatrix tab and the extra Matrix racks in the MSEGs and Mappers are already providing this functionality. Not perfect yet, but they do. MSEGs and Mappers even contain slots for when they are targets themselves. The system can and will be improved by allowing more options to focus and by improving readability. I can think of various ways to quickly show everything an LFO does, e.g. by right-clicking the Logo and "show in Matrix" or something. It looks different, and maybe it takes some time to get used to.

But then, on the target side, I am pretty sceptical in respect of Zebra. The real fun starts when modulators work on each other or through another. But indirect modulations can't be represented properly in spreadsheets small or big. With such a concept you'd have to flip between spreadsheets. Modulations across modules are quite accessible in Zebra though, just by using the main UI. That is exactly the kind of context that its UI makes accessible, but one needs to get their mind involved.

So for now let us focus on the thing I've videoed, and some more enhancements we've already done, such as showing the mod depth in the menu. Then let's revisit the topic after everyone had opportunity to use it.

[jtsterays]

Okay, so in your video you already knew which knob are being modulated, so you can right click to have the option switch to other modulators. But lets say you're in an unfamiliar patch, do I have to randomly right click a bunch of knobs to find one that has that?