Question about Waldorf PPG, Wave and Microwave

[tee boy]

Does anyone know how many samples are used per wave on these synths? By that, I mean is it a single wave, or multisamples as in other rom synths?

[ugo]

the microwave's wavetables had 64 spaces and used additive synthesis to generate the single cycle waveforms and interpolate between them. with the aid of editing software (like sounddiver), you could make your own wavetables either from the supplied waves, hand tweak/create them via an typical addtive style interface, or you could resynthesize a sample.

also, you dont have to have a wave for each part of the table. you could leave gaps and let the interpolation smooth the transition between them.

-ugo

[ugo]

btw, here's a link to the microwave II/XT/XTk manual.
http://waldorf.electro-music.com/microw ... .3%20E.pdf

-ugo

[hollowsun]

Does anyone know how many samples are used per wave on these synths? By that, I mean is it a single wave, or multisamples as in other rom synths?

The original PPG had 32 wavetables. In each of these were 64 waveforms (of which the last three were always triangle, square and sawtooth).

To my knowledge, they were not multi-samples - they were digital oscillators and played across the whole keyboard in pretty much exactly the same way as MiniMoog would play an analogue sawtooth oscillator.

They were 8-bit and generally low resolution and hence had a 'crunchy' bottom end and a fair bit of aliasing at high frequencies but that was all part of the charm.

You could sweep through any one wavetable using controllers such as envelopes, LFOs and real0time controllers (modwheel, keyboard position) etc.. However, transition between the waves in the wavetable was stepped but again, another unique characteristic of the original.

I believe these were all improved in subsequent products (16-bit and smooth waveform transition in wavetables) but I remained loyal to my PPG Wave 2.2 coz it sounded so fantastic.

Steve

[Rozzer]

I think he means are they multisampled across the kbd.... to which I think the answer is no.

(steve got there before me)

[james0tucson]

One of the neatest things about the MWXT, and I assume other Waldorfs (Waldorves?) is the way it interpolates the wavetable. If you just pepper the the table with a few waves, it fills in the table so that sweeps work in a continuous way.

Very few of the presets actually use the wavetable effectively, and that's unfortunate because it's THE THING about this synth.

[ross g]

one thing i remeber (if correctly) being a difference between Micrwave I and II, I used only a half cycle of a wave and mirrored the other half, II had a full cycle...so you couldn't do certain things like emulate a pulse width modulation (the sound using the duty cycle of the full waveform)

can Kublick fully implement a full wave cycle as such? anyone a power user?


rg

[tee boy]

Thanks guys, very insightful!

Steven,

Hi! I am a big PPG fan, so I can relate. I have the VST version, as I cant afford a real one. I was under the impression that the waveforms were sampled, rather than synthesized, hence my question about number of samples per oct. So I guess the best way to sample this synth would be a full 'white key' job.


Ugo,

So let me just clarify this a moment. You're saying that the waveforms in the MW are additive representations of the original PPG waves plus other new ones? Gotcha. Again, I always thought it used sampled waveforms. I guess this would allow smoother interpolation.

As Ross just mentioned, I bet Kubik would be a great choice for an MW emulation (does it not do a similar thing?).

[philipvjones]

one thing i remeber (if correctly) being a difference between Micrwave I and II, I used only a half cycle of a wave and mirrored the other half, II had a full cycle...so you couldn't do certain things like emulate a pulse width modulation (the sound using the duty cycle of the full waveform)

can Kublick fully implement a full wave cycle as such? anyone a power user?


rg

Kubik uses full wave the half wave thing was a hardware limitation(optimization) that I think started with PPG.

Kubik can pwm any wave or you could emulate with the wave table.

Kubik can interpolate between waves in wavetable. It will do it either in time domain or frequency domain... either interp waveshape or interp additive partials in waves. It has many many other functions for manipulating waves and wavetables.... probably most are overlooked but really powerful.

Kubik has 64 slot wave table that two osc travel over. Waves can be hand drawn, additive created, imported from wave file. It comes supplied with hundreds of waves and many waves and wavetables are around from users like Totc...

Kubik has modulation matrix with lots of possiblities... in some ways more than MWII in some ways less.


Hope that helps.

Phil

[tee boy]

How well does Kubik handle resynthesis - could you analyse a single cycle waveform and expect to use it across any great range?

Or does it pose similar limitations to sampling?

[ugo]

So let me just clarify this a moment. You're saying that the waveforms in the MW are additive representations of the original PPG waves plus other new ones?

yup, it uses a 64 harmonic additive engine. although the manual doesnt get into discussing it, there is a hint to this where they talk about the time quantizing parameter and it mentions that the MW produces 64 harmonics. you cant edit the harmonics of the waves directly from the synth, but sounddiver had a section where you could create your own waves using a 64 harmonic additive interface.

As Ross just mentioned, I bet Kubik would be a great choice for an MW emulation (does it not do a similar thing?).

yes, kubik works very similarly and can do similar kinds of sounds.

How well does Kubik handle resynthesis - could you analyse a single cycle waveform and expect to use it across any great range?

i'll let a power user of kubik answer this one. i dont use kubik much and the only resynthesis attempts i've done with it have been with longer samples.

-ugo

[jens]

Waldorves?

Waldörfer(n)

[ross g]

jens, aren't you a Kublik power user? if so, could you give some insights, programming tips, etc? i used to own a MW2, i dumped it because Sound Diver was buggy for me (old Mac version, long story) and i could never get my own waves/wave tables into it...i'm interested in wavetable synthesis because the sonic character of the Microwave synths were so cool...i like the stark, cold, very "synthetic" but dynamic, stuff they could produce...from something as mundane as using wave samples of my voice to create weird bu vox, or experimenting with interpolation between waves i like, it really seems to capture my imagination for synthesis possibilities....

basically, i'd like to hear from someone who knows their way around Kublick, real-world experiences, what it can and can't do, etc, if i got the wrong impression, sorry, if someone else could pipe in, that's fine too.....(maybe this is the wrong forum, but since its going )

thanks,
rg

[jens]

well, I indeed know Kubik fairlöy well - you can get that cold digital sound from it but it also excells at sounds which I'd expect from a really good physical modelling synth - all kinds of warm organic breathy sounds - it can do the tiny but also the huge sounds - and compltely sick stuff (e.g. you can modulate the arpeggiator-speed ) - the programming options are almost endless - cpu-consumption is also on the low side for what it does - it is a very special synths.


Here's a few cool facts:

- you can modulate the wavetable-sweep(s) in four different ways:

a: by using multistage-envelopes

b: by using the most flexible LFO I've ever came across

c: by uing a sequencer

d: by using a step-sequencer

- you can modulate almost anything with anything

- it includes several good fx

- it has got two very flexible filters with each offering twelve different types (including formant and comb)

- it comes with lots of wavetables and even many more waves

- etc.

(I hope this helps a bit...)

[ross g]

it does...and i finally opened the demo...

i was struck by how easy it _seems_ to be able to program, i barely looked at the manual and i was able to do at least some stuff, no big suprises...unfortunatly, as soon as i got going, the sound dies out...alas, that's a demo for you...the other thing that struck me was how good it sounds...i've been very disapointed by the sound quality of vst synths, there are a few that are pretty good, but up against real analog for example, the free emulations aren't so pleasing to my ears....kubik seems to do what it's supposed to do without being overly complicated, and i'm close to purchasing...

i've only got 2 concerns:

1. when i had my MW2, the presets were a little "new age" for me, along with bread and butter brass/organ patches, kubik has that in common, but once getting into the programming, the MW2 could get dirty/nasty, or just sound good with more stark wave sweeps (w/o filters and FX, just good raw tone)..does kubik posses the same quality?

2. is it easy and bug-free to import waves and build wavetables from scratch?

i wouldn't even bug you with these questions, it's just that, like i mentioned, as soon as i get my sleeves rolled up and into the thick of things, kubik shuts down...i'm going to pour over the manual as well...


thanks,
rg