A wierd copywrite law question

[Equilibrium]

I'm in the process of writing a book for drum kit that is going to included some snipits of certain drummers. Not in audio however, written down old fashioned written music. I'm talking about eight bar of drumming for each one, not long things at all. I've spend a feck load of time doing it and have done around seven already, meticulously listen again and again to tunes and extracting the patterns perfectly. Then it just hit me, am I actually alowed to do this?

By selling a book with snippets of music written out will I get fecked? Of course not I though, but then I thought again. Copywrite laws are so f**king over the top these days it's not funny.

Next thing I though was that I remember that Jazz book that was illegally floating around the place (I can't remember the name but it's dead famous). Why was it illegal? Because it wrote out other people's music? If so that is a joke.

*Rant Mode* I wish people would stop being such a bunch of do goody muppets when it come to copywrite law and actually learn how to not give a toss. I love KVR but I can't stand the prissy attitude at times of some people when something like the bourbon breaks web site gets linked, that they have to near piss their pants while scanning through copywrite laws in their head like a little conformist monkey. I have a stack full of Miles Davis CD's beside me, but I will happily go to the library and burn some CD's of his, why, because he's dead and he isn't losing a penny. I'll happily buy and underground artists CD, but when it comes to Foo Fighters I really don't care if I "steal" their music because their hardly going to starve... *Rant Over*

Anyway, am I breaking a law if I release this book?

[Lord Snarebottom]

As to your rant, stealing is stealing. You can justify it anyway you wish (obviously), but you're still a thief.

As to your book: don't expect me or anyone else to buy it. We've already justified that it's okay to steal from a wanker, such as yourself, so we'll just make copies.

Also, next time I come to Burger King, you better give me some free burgers, because BG Inc. surely isn't going to starve because you gave some burgers away.

Wanker. Look in the mirror. That's what a jerkoff looks like.

[Majken]

A wild guess is that if you say that it's a "classic rock beat" instead of saying the exact song you should be in no trouble. But if you decide to name the artist and song it could be a different story.

/Majken

[3*s]

You can't copyright rhythmic patterns. Chances are the drum parts in question have been used in many songs.

edit: If we're talking complex drum solos, I'm not sure however. I still doubt it would be a problem. at anyone who would make a big deal out of it.

[DWb]

I'm in the process of writing a book for drum kit that is going to included some snipits of certain drummers. Not in audio however, written down old fashioned written music. I'm talking about eight bar of drumming for each one, not long things at all. I've spend a feck load of time doing it and have done around seven already, meticulously listen again and again to tunes and extracting the patterns perfectly. Then it just hit me, am I actually alowed to do this?

You're probably okay if you put 'in the style of whoever' rather than 'from the track whatever by whoever.' But IANAL.

Next thing I though was that I remember that Jazz book that was illegally floating around the place (I can't remember the name but it's dead famous). Why was it illegal? Because it wrote out other people's music? If so that is a joke.

Why not? The point of copyright is to make sure that people get rewarded for their creativity rather than having to give up and work in McDonalds. Selling sheet music is one way that they get this. And what about, for instance, a composer whose main source of income is writing instrumental music that other people then buy to play? The thing that annoys me a bit about the jazz example (the Real Book) is that most of the tunes involved are already pretty old, and thans to the Sonny Bonno Copyright Extension Fuckup, they're pretty much out of the public domain forever. And that the release of some of these things into the public domain would really improve the culture by allowing jazz musicians copyright free stuff to work with.

:x *Rant Mode* :x I wish people would stop being such a bunch of do goody muppets when it come to copywrite law and actually learn how to not give a toss. I love KVR but I can't stand the prissy attitude at times of some people when something like the bourbon breaks web site gets linked, that they have to near piss their pants while scanning through copywrite laws in their head like a little conformist monkey. I have a stack full of Miles Davis CD's beside me, but I will happily go to the library and burn some CD's of his, why, because he's dead and he isn't losing a penny. I'll happily buy and underground artists CD, but when it comes to Foo Fighters I really don't care if I "steal" their music because their hardly going to starve... *Rant Over* :D

I don't like the state of copyright law at the moment. I think it's been stacked by corrupt legislation in favour of the financial interests of big corporations, it does little to help the 'little guy' who it was originally meant to protect, it shafts the consumer, stifles creativity, and on the whole makes everyone's cultural life poorer. However, if you link to copyright infringing stuff from KvR, the copyright owners can hire big lawyers, sue horribly and get KvR shut down, particularly if it can't afford to fight back. This would be a Bad Thing, so people are understandably down on it.

As to the ethics of copying music, we're on a one way ticket to flamesville here...

[duncanparsons]

Probably, the book in question was the 'Real Eb' book. there were several versions available 'under the counter'. It's a kind of bible for jazz standards. It's a great resource, but reproduced without license. The music is still copywritten music, no matter the medium.

Now, thing is with drum patterns, you may be alright. A melody can be copyright, since this is the salient aspect of the piece, but the arrangement isn't, unless its a new arrangement of a traditional piece. This is UK law, anyway. I think most countires view it this way as well. The Real book only gave you a head sheet (melody line and suggested chords), but had they given written out the whole of the arrangement of 'Green Dolphin Street' in meticulous detail, but neglected to put the melody, they could have successfully argued that they didn't break copyright. In general, improvistation within a written piece is not subject to copyright; however, if the piece itself is improvised (like Richie Havens 'Freedom' at Woodstock) then that constitutes copyright.

It comes down to the salient features of a work, which in general is the vocal line, or melody. You can be on dodgy ground with a guitar solo in a tune, since if it can be argued that it is part of the song, and not just arrangement, then copyright exists.

Now to drums. In general, I would argue they are exempt from copyright, unless it's a drum piece, like 'The Drum also Waltzes' by Roach, etc. 'Take 5' - even tho the toon is basically an excuse for a drum solo, the copyright exists only on the tune, not Morello's excellent playing.

On the whole you should be OK, but try getting other advice. Bill Bruford had a book out of transcripts of his playing in the mid 80s ('When in Doubt, Roll'). It's an excellent book, and basically authored by Bill but the transcipts are by a third party. Whilst this is different to what you are doing, Bill is very approachable, and would probably have some advice. info@billbruford.com will get a mail to him, so long as you are courteous and give a reasonable idea of what you are doing and what advice you are seeking, I'm sure he would help you with some advice.

I undertstand your rant, and the powers that be are quite draconian about protecting what they see is theres. Having said that, there are some decent types out there, and it can be worth trying to get hold of some of those who you've transcribed and show them what you've done. If the actual artist tells you (in writing) that they don't mind, then there's nothing a topnotch lawyer can do. If they say no, then you have to respect that. It's generally better to at least have shown that you made an effort, so that if any allegation of breach of copyright ever came up, you can show reasonable effort to ensure you were covered. Being arrogant and brash is more likely to attract being sued

@Lord Snarebottom - please, I appreciate the point of view, but it's hardly necessary. This guy has put in a lot of work, and is doing the decent thing and seeking advice. I've taught drums, and done transcriptions, and if he works at Burger King, well he's got a job more than I had for some time whilst working as a musician...

Hope this all helps
DSP

[Equilibrium]

You can't copyright rhythmic patterns. Chances are the drum parts in question have been used in many songs.

edit: If we're talking complex drum solos, I'm not sure however. I still doubt it would be a problem. at anyone who would make a big deal out of it.

yeah that's the thing, I do actually want to name the grooves, and who did them. If it was a bar or do I could understand it not being noticeable, but these are long enough that they would have a fingerprint as such.

Lord Snarebottom, I looked in the mirror and all that looked back at me is someone who doesn't give a s**t about bending down and pulling my trousers down to large governments and cooperations. And, Mr SoreBottom, could you refrain from using the word wanker, the english accent is the only one that can carry of such a strange word, and I will save yourself from mispelling it with an A at the end or something that you may not be able to resist the allure of.

As for copying the book, feel free, it's comes with loads of free Studio quality samples, and loads of other stuff, unlike the likes of your I write for the love of it not for getting rich, I make my money other ways. So photo copy away I don't give a toss.

[whyterabbyt]

And, Mr SoreBottom, could you refrain from using the word wanker, the english accent is the only one that can carry of such a strange word

No its not.

[Amberience]

As to your rant, stealing is stealing. You can justify it anyway you wish (obviously), but you're still a thief.

Which is not an inherently bad thing if you ask me. Being a self righteous tosser though?

[Equilibrium]

Probably, the book in question was the 'Real Eb' book. there were several versions available 'under the counter'. It's a kind of bible for jazz standards. It's a great resource, but reproduced without license. The music is still copywritten music, no matter the medium.

Now, thing is with drum patterns, you may be alright. A melody can be copyright, since this is the salient aspect of the piece, but the arrangement isn't, unless its a new arrangement of a traditional piece. This is UK law, anyway. I think most countires view it this way as well. The Real book only gave you a head sheet (melody line and suggested chords), but had they given written out the whole of the arrangement of 'Green Dolphin Street' in meticulous detail, but neglected to put the melody, they could have successfully argued that they didn't break copyright. In general, improvistation within a written piece is not subject to copyright; however, if the piece itself is improvised (like Richie Havens 'Freedom' at Woodstock) then that constitutes copyright.

It comes down to the salient features of a work, which in general is the vocal line, or melody. You can be on dodgy ground with a guitar solo in a tune, since if it can be argued that it is part of the song, and not just arrangement, then copyright exists.

Now to drums. In general, I would argue they are exempt from copyright, unless it's a drum piece, like 'The Drum also Waltzes' by Roach, etc. 'Take 5' - even tho the toon is basically an excuse for a drum solo, the copyright exists only on the tune, not Morello's excellent playing.

On the whole you should be OK, but try getting other advice. Bill Bruford had a book out of transcripts of his playing in the mid 80s ('When in Doubt, Roll'). It's an excellent book, and basically authored by Bill but the transcipts are by a third party. Whilst this is different to what you are doing, Bill is very approachable, and would probably have some advice. info@billbruford.com will get a mail to him, so long as you are courteous and give a reasonable idea of what you are doing and what advice you are seeking, I'm sure he would help you with some advice.

I undertstand your rant, and the powers that be are quite draconian about protecting what they see is theres. Having said that, there are some decent types out there, and it can be worth trying to get hold of some of those who you've transcribed and show them what you've done. If the actual artist tells you (in writing) that they don't mind, then there's nothing a topnotch lawyer can do. If they say no, then you have to respect that. It's generally better to at least have shown that you made an effort, so that if any allegation of breach of copyright ever came up, you can show reasonable effort to ensure you were covered. Being arrogant and brash is more likely to attract being sued

@Lord Snarebottom - please, I appreciate the point of view, but it's hardly necessary. This guy has put in a lot of work, and is doing the decent thing and seeking advice. I've taught drums, and done transcriptions, and if he works at Burger King, well he's got a job more than I had for some time whilst working as a musician...

Hope this all helps
DSP

Thank you so much what a wonderful reply. Thank you also Dwb, your response was very helpful too. I a mild person by nature I just get rumbled by this whole buisness of "ownership" and the sanctimosity way people defend law built to screw over the man in the street.

I'll send info@billbruford.com a message, what a wonderful contact, thank you very much. I'm going to investigate this as much as I can, if I can't put those patters in I will be heart broken as I have spent hours on them and they are the best thing about the book.

Thanks for the advice people

[Equilibrium]

just to add some more detail regarding the sailent feature of a song, what I am specifically doing is transcribing funk/soul breaks. They are obviously quite an important part of the song but they still aren't the most important part? Except to a sample DJ or something.

[Peel]

I assume those drumming magazines have transcriptions, like guitar magazines do. You could try writing to one of them and asking. I know the biggest thing that will get you in trouble (and rightfully so) is copying transcriptions someone else has made (rather than doing them yourself from scratch) but obviously you're not planning on doing that.
I also doubt that a transcription of a drum part violates copyright, but my opinion is basically worthless, and you never know in this day & age. So don't stress over it, just make sure you're safe before you publish

[bduffy]

I assume those drumming magazines have transcriptions, like guitar magazines do. You could try writing to one of them and asking. I know the biggest thing that will get you in trouble (and rightfully so) is copying transcriptions someone else has made (rather than doing them yourself from scratch) but obviously you're not planning on doing that.
I also doubt that a transcription of a drum part violates copyright, but my opinion is basically worthless, and you never know in this day & age. So don't stress over it, just make sure you're safe before you publish

Yes, but will he "write" the magazine, or will he "right" the magazine? I don't think he knows the difference...

[Equilibrium]

I assume those drumming magazines have transcriptions, like guitar magazines do. You could try writing to one of them and asking. I know the biggest thing that will get you in trouble (and rightfully so) is copying transcriptions someone else has made (rather than doing them yourself from scratch) but obviously you're not planning on doing that.
I also doubt that a transcription of a drum part violates copyright, but my opinion is basically worthless, and you never know in this day & age. So don't stress over it, just make sure you're safe before you publish

man, good point indeed, in fact I happen to live beside future publishing. Thanks a lot for that one... I stoopidly didn't think of it.

[Stairsteps]

bottomline, even though your just copying the bars the old fashion way its still illegal to do so and try to benifit from it. DOH thats what COPYRITE means dont copy ppl stuff in any way shape or form.

your complaining that copyrite is over the top, well your over the top for not comming up with original stuff for your book but to leach off others and then wonder if its ok to copy it . you cant copy ppl stuff either writen or in its original form and expect to not be sued.

This topic should be closed its has to be the dumbest thing Ive seen here on KvR, ppl like this guy destroy the industry because he dosent know the law and he has decided to resort to stealing ppl ideas and CDs because he has no clue, Miles Davis has heirs and they have the rights to all his work his foundations and stuff will get hurt if ppl take a attitude that Oh hes dead so now i can steal his stuff. Man its ppl like you that make this entire industry impose laws and restrictions because we have morons like you floating around.

BTW I HATE THIEFS. i hope you never come back to kvr asking questions agian.