developers.. live MIDI performance VST (Zyklus/Direct)

[lung]

Hello. We have a plethora of softsynth & audio manglers, but what we need is a way to control these live (as shown by recent high-profile products like NI KORE, Korg/Karma-Labs Karma, SonicBytes Phrazor & ERA, MusicWonk). I am a lover/owner of ERA2 & eXT.

I came upon this incredible find/opportunity to jumpstart the state of live performance/composition to where it should be developed to (considering the powerful processing we have at our disposal):


Bill Marshall, who created custom live MIDI performance devices for Vangelis (Direct) & the Zyklus MPS, has been posting on the SOS forum looking for a developer to work with to realize the ultimate MIDI performance software. He has had no luck finding a developer (save a little interest from Ableton).

Bill has created specifications (pdf) for the software and posted it to a website for everyone to download and look over: http://www.vyla.co.uk/ The forums listed below are an essential read to accompany these specs. You can email Bill @ bill@vyla.co.uk

I was hoping that Holger of SonicBytes/Jorgen of energyXT/or even NI (KORE addition) might be interested in taking some (or all!) of the ideas of the Zyklus / Direct MIDI performance system and creating VST software from it. I am waiting for the Karma software version to be released as well, but an improved Zyklus/Direct VST would be more desirable for my needs (well, complimentary).

The SOS forum threads are incredibly interesting, and are split into 2 threads, first thread has most of the information in it:

Thread1 Here
Thread2 Here

I was originally looking for a live MIDI looper device much like Zone Mobius, where one could record sequences, warp, twist, remix, reloop, groove shift, mangle, stretch using some live controllers like Tablet2MIDI, Touchpad2MIDI, and my keyboard/pad/knob controllers (Trigger Finger, soon-to-be Novation Remote SL with automap). I haven't found anything that can do this.

Another live MIDI sequencing device I'd love to see in software is the Latronic Notron (manual), more info here. These hardware devices cost a mint, and with computers/generic MIDI controllers (even custom-config ones like MIDIBox) there is no reason we should have to rely on expensive ageing hardware or pay ebay prices.

I'd also love to see more intelligent/AI engines built that could be plugged-into an existing framework (VST? ), and I'm not talking auto-accompanyment, but (semi-)controllable meta-sequencers.

I just noticed the Chordspace TNG which looks fresh .

I know we could use these tools and may not know it yet

Thoughts?
Interest?
Interested users/developers?

[WMVyla]

I have basically got nowhere trying to interest major distributors in any of these ideas for Improvisor or the Synth Control Station. The biggest problem I have is not money but time to develop commercial-grade software myself. Also, I have been out of the industry for many many years so my technical knowledge about working with some of the latest stuff such as the intracacies of VSTi's and USB for example, is very limited.

Since there seems to be a lot of interest in the project, I have decided not to kill it off but to change approach and instead look for a partner in the development, i.e. someone who can share a lot of the low level coding. This means that the project will now almost certainly be a software product and not a hardware one.

I also feel that the Improvisor spec as it stands is interesting enough but it seemed to be lacking something. Because of this, I am currently working on a revised spec which will make the beast more like Vangelis's Direct, certainly much more immediate than the Zyklus MPS ever was and will have all the live control stuff as outlined in the other spec for the Synthesiser Control Station. I have a temporary web site (www.vyla.co.uk) where I will post it when it is ready. The emphasis will very specifically be on live performance, controlling any mixture of external MIDI synths and internal VSTi's, and will obviously have to feature ReWire support and full control mapping to external surfaces, amongst other things. More info soon...

[bronswerk]

This is great. Looking for the spec...

[haydxn]

My main area of interest (as a C++ programmer) is that of the musical interface. Rather than process audio, all my VST/app ideas and project dreams tend to revolve around processing and generation of MIDI and other control data.

I'm definitely not what you would call a commercial developer, but i am keen to read this spec and see what it's all about, and will probably end up seeing if i can come up with anything useful and fun. If anything uses your ideas or specs, you can be sure that I'll keep you informed.

[SONICBYTES]

Hi WMVyla,

sounds very interestingon on the first view. I'll read during easter... and contact you then.

May be you want to try out Phrazor. It's a very live-oriented host.

Cheers
Holger

[spuddle]

I have basically got nowhere trying to interest major distributors in any of these ideas for Improvisor or the Synth Control Station. The biggest problem I have is not money but time to develop commercial-grade software myself. Also, I have been out of the industry for many many years so my technical knowledge about working with some of the latest stuff such as the intracacies of VSTi's and USB for example, is very limited.

Since there seems to be a lot of interest in the project, I have decided not to kill it off but to change approach and instead look for a partner in the development, i.e. someone who can share a lot of the low level coding. This means that the project will now almost certainly be a software product and not a hardware one.

I also feel that the Improvisor spec as it stands is interesting enough but it seemed to be lacking something. Because of this, I am currently working on a revised spec which will make the beast more like Vangelis's Direct, certainly much more immediate than the Zyklus MPS ever was and will have all the live control stuff as outlined in the other spec for the Synthesiser Control Station. I have a temporary web site (www.vyla.co.uk) where I will post it when it is ready. The emphasis will very specifically be on live performance, controlling any mixture of external MIDI synths and internal VSTi's, and will obviously have to feature ReWire support and full control mapping to external surfaces, amongst other things. More info soon...

Hi Bill! This is the first time I've been introduced to this concept of the Improviser or even indeed the Direct and the Zyklus. Very fascinating. I myself find that the further I delve into the deep world of (soft) synthesis, the more frustrated I actually get at the lack of a decent and musical way to fully control all these wonderful new sounds.

Your project is of great fascination to me. I hope that there will be some interested parties here on the forums who will lend a hand, coding wise.

Try not to be discouraged by the lack of interested from the commericial companies. It definately seems that some protyping is in order to properly convince the companies currently blind to the potential here. It will definately need some form of working demos that can show in a matter of seconds what thousands of words of specs, concepts and schematics can't.

I wish you the best of luck and shall follow this (and the SoS) thread in earnst from now on.

[WMVyla]

Many thanks to all who have given me encouragement to continue with the design for Improvisor. I have drafted a new design which I call the Zyklus Improvisor. This design is perhaps easier to develop but at the same time, is more powerful than the original spec and specifically, will be much easier to understand and use and appeal to a more general user base.

Like the previous, it is basically a modular collection of all sorts of MIDI manipulation tools but is now very focused on being able to reproduce some of the incredible interactive stuff that can be achieved, where being slightly early or late with your timing can often set creativity off in new, unusual and exciting directions. The trouble with my earlier projects is that when you accidentally created an amazing groove, you could never quite get exactly the same thing on a later occasion. The new design addresses this.

In order to make this a viable proposition, I think it is very important to also cater for the needs of the gigging musician who does not need to improvise live but who wants an instant way to set up his/her synths (VSTi or external), zone them, make sure they have the correct sounds, transpose them and so on. Commercial manufacturers seem to ignore these fundamental tasks and think that control is all about being able to tweak some obsure parameter on a soft synth. The design for Zyklus Improvisor thus should offer something for everyone, with my aim being a true front-end controller that can be implemented in software only or can have huge chunks of it converted to hardware as a later project. A universal controller front-end for existing sequencers (using Rewire, etc) is thus the aim and I hope that if this aim has not been achieved in the spec that at least it is a starting point.

But I need assistance with the coding of this. Working for 15 years writing software for oil companies in the north of Scotland does not keep one up to date with the low level details of some of the basic computer technologies required by modern, real-time apps (USB, VSTi, etc). Alternatively, if any small company feels that they like the idea but would prefer to do it all on their own, then I am not closed to handing it over. I really don't care. I have wasted over a year trying to interest the larger companies and got nowhere. I would just like to see this project finished and out there but I know it will take far too long if I have to do everything myself.

I wish that I could provide some idea of what multi-sequence, polyphonic triggering sounds like. Or even to let you hear what layering synths with several synchronised arpeggiators can sound like. Most people on this forum will know but in my experience, most people do not even realise the benefits of being able to turn synths on and off without note hanging, that is, until you demonstrate it. After that, you generally have a convert. Unfortunately, providing a useable demo of creating sequences in real-time with different loop points while interacting with live playing, arpeggiators and other sequences is very difficult because then that would almost be the product. So, regrettably, I cannot provide a working demo to anyone at this stage in the project.

You can, however, get the latest spec from www.vyla.co.uk and you can contact me directly at bill@vyla.co.uk

Again, many many thanks to all who have supported me this far.

Bill Marshall

[spuddle]

Hi Bill, just getting the latest spec and shall read through it tonight.

Have you had any responses to this thread from eager-to-help coders who participate on these forums?

Have you seen the guys who created the new controller; Monome? They have a great company ethos and might be willing to take your project on board when their current monome controller is more established. It seems that you both are coming from similar perspectives albiet with different applications. I'm sure they would give you a good response to any query you direct at them.

Makes me wish I could code now!

Anyhow, I'll continue to follow the developments here and shall spread the word however I can.

regards,
-myles

[bronswerk]

Really exciting stuff, Bill. Is there a way we can help Bill to find another person who can code?

[dubbyah]

this is perfect, keep at it! if done correctly this could be what everyone needs (who wants to do loop oriented experimental electronic live)

[WMVyla]

Zyklus Improvisor doesn't need to use loops. During a live show, not much would be achieved by recording a 250 bar sequence, of course, but remember that sequences can be replayed at 999bpm to give trill effects, hold on the last chord and other such stuff. Or you could have a loop but one that didn't sound the same twice, or one where you kept layering stuff on top of it. Just thought I'd be picky... Thanks for the positive comments.

[bronswerk]

Ok, time for an update. Bill has written a framework for the Zyklus Improvisor program, but there is/are still no volunteer(s) who can help him taking off the workload regarding programming some of the functions. There were a few reactions, but still nothing concrete sadly.

If someone interested have any questions what this is all about , please take a look at http://www.vyla.co.uk and download the http://www.vyla.co.uk/Zyklus_Improvisor.zip file which include a pdf file and describes in great detail the specification of this program.

So another call for ANYONE who has affinity with this (in theory) groundbreaking program. If you can write in C, C++ or Delphi in the Borland environment please respond to Bill. Email: bill@vyla.co.uk

[spuddle]

Breaks my heart to see that Bill still has trouble and slow progress with whatever road he turns to. Makes me wish I could program just so I could help him out somehow..

I'll keep my eyes out for programmer friends with an interest in music..

[thenumber23]

I wrote an app a few years ago based on live loop triggering. Could any of the code behind this app be used to help? Link

Brian

[bronswerk]

Update. Spoke to Bill today. Sadly there are no volunteers. If nobody shows up in the near future the project is dead I believe. Wish I had other news...