KVR Audio

bullshark · Post by **bullshark** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:10 pm

...is so darn usefull AND simple to use. Shear beauty. Not only simple to setup, but you can come back to a project months after last working on it and figure out everything that's happening where in a few seconds.

All other sidechain solution I've tried are so convoluted, they're almost useless. Why oh why didn't any other dev ever implemented something like this? Is it a patent type of thing?

Kingston · Post by **Kingston** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:19 pm

I don't know about you people but despite the critisism, I've found the cubase SX sidechain implemention the most elegant of all.

reason 1. it's not called sidechaining (because that's misleading, there are other uses for this type of bussing as well)

reason 2. that's how it works in hardware compressors and mixing desks.

In fact the Cubase SX implementation is rather simple considering those two points.

Also, know that the dbaudioware implementation introduces latency. Not a good thing.

bullshark · Post by **bullshark** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:51 pm

Well, I don't have Cubase, except the version that came with GPO that I've never installed. But I did read a post describing sidechaining in Cubase here a few months back; just reading through gave me headache.

Also, know that the dbaudioware implementation introduces latency.

How much and is it compensated for by the host? I've never noticed.

Kingston · Post by **Kingston** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:56 pm

bullshark wrote:I did read a post describing sidechaining in Cubase here a few months back; just reading through gave me headache.

Gives you a headache doing it with hardware as well ...in the best case scenario.

Getting some templates going makes it easy. And it really is easy when you understand routing.

Also, know that the dbaudioware implementation introduces latency. How much and is it compensated for by the host? I've never noticed.

AFAIK DX plugin latencies aren't compensated by the hosts. If I had to guess it's somewhere between 5-50ms, which may or may not be crucial with percussive or other dynamic material. Consider youself lucky to not be bothered by it.

bullshark · Post by **bullshark** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:41 pm

I use the feature mostly for VA work, so it's doubtfull I'd notice low latencies like that. Still, I have trouble figuring where the latency would be added. On the control signal line? The response of the controled instance or it's output?

MrM · Post by **MrM** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:04 pm

bullshark wrote:...is so darn usefull AND simple to use. Shear beauty. Not only simple to setup, but you can come back to a project months after last working on it and figure out everything that's happening where in a few seconds.

That was one the largest reason's why I bought the bundle.
It would have been nice if they were VST instead of DX. But the sidechaining is completely functional, and the built in limiters are also well thought up!

Kingston · Post by **Kingston** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:56 pm

bullshark wrote:I use the feature mostly for VA work, so it's doubtfull I'd notice low latencies like that. Still, I have trouble figuring where the latency would be added. On the control signal line? The response of the controled instance or it's output?

The latency is added to the control signal (ie. envelope detection) of the sidechained compressor.

Imagine this simple scenario: you want to turn down the volume of bass guitar every time the kick drum hits.

With latency, the bass guitars volume is turned down too late, compared to instantenous analog sidechain (or latency compensated one).

As I said, it might, or might not be a problem. YMMV.

bullshark · Post by **bullshark** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:42 pm

Thanks Kingston. I had found this in the meantime http://forums.db-audioware.com/viewtopic.php?t=57
Still is beautifull and usefull implementation no matter.

kritikon · Post by **kritikon** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:20 pm

Seconded.

I love the way db stuff sidechains. Cubase is OK (yeah...better than the h/w way) but still a bit longwinded. And you have to create a group and all that crap. With db you just insert, selct and off you go (although I suppose a downside is that you need 2 instances of the plugin.)

Dunno about the DX thing...I use the QuantumFX package within Cubase. So it's all VST.

. Which is all compensated for, naturally.

I suppose you really can gobble up the CPU with 2 instances of the same complicated QFX plugins though - but - ohboyohboy - you can make up some sweet and weird sidechaining thingummies in QFX2. No need for a quattro group, no funny routings, no prefader sending nonsense. One of the many reasons I'm glad to be making music in the s/w age...db Audio actually took advantage of s/w methods to improve on something above and beyond what h/w can do, and in an obvious and simple way.

Kingston · Post by **Kingston** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:24 pm

the rumour mill (well a betatester friend leaked actually) says that a very similar implementation will be featured in SX4. Something about completely redesigning, and just downright implementing sidachaining. Right now it's just as inflexible as any bussing in hardware is, and not strictly SCing at all..

kritikon · Post by **kritikon** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:39 pm

Aha...sounds interesting. Little things like that might just possibly get me off my arse to upgrade to SX4. That'd be a proper workflow improvement, not just fluff.

Hmmmm...

Kingston · Post by **Kingston** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:45 pm

wait till you hear about the other stuff...

(I consider the SC implementation quite minor in comparison)

but *shhhh*, for now

bullshark · Post by **bullshark** » Mon May 01, 2006 10:54 am

kritikon wrote:
Dunno about the DX thing...I use the QuantumFX package within Cubase.

I have the DX version. There was a special half price sale that ended...yesterday and I just found out now

In any case, how would you rate the different module of the bundle? I'm specifically looking for:
A mastering limiter (the non colorful kind)
A single band compressor w/sidechain capability
A native reverb solution (not the metallic plate type, more organic type of thing)
A de-esser (although the one from digitalfishpnones is pretty amazing in itself)

The QFX package looks like an amazing deal, but by nature I'm kind of weary of all-in-oneer, so any comments or hindsight would be most helpfull.

I suppose you really can gobble up the CPU with 2 instances of the same complicated QFX plugins though

Isn't the control line one only used to send audio though, without any processing? The CPU used never bothered me, always though it was negligible.

- but - ohboyohboy - you can make up some sweet and weird sidechaining thingummies in QFX2. No need for a quattro group, no funny routings, no prefader sending nonsense. One of the many reasons I'm glad to be making music in the s/w age...db Audio actually took advantage of s/w methods to improve on something above and beyond what h/w can do, and in an obvious and simple way.

I couldn't agree more, software should offer more options while being easier to use and Dave did this beautifully. Not always the case with software unfortunately.

dhanjit · Post by **dhanjit** » Mon May 01, 2006 11:38 am

bullshark wrote:I have the DX version. There was a special half price sale that ended...yesterday and I just found out now

The website hasn't been updated. If you're quick, you can still buy with the discount.

Rune L-H · Post by **Rune L-H** » Mon May 01, 2006 12:04 pm

bullshark wrote:...is so darn usefull AND simple to use. Shear beauty. Not only simple to setup, but you can come back to a project months after last working on it and figure out everything that's happening where in a few seconds.

All other sidechain solution I've tried are so convoluted, they're almost useless. Why oh why didn't any other dev ever implemented something like this? Is it a patent type of thing?

I think the reason why we haven't seen that approach used in newer plugins, is because hosts are becomming more flexible in terms of busses, routings etc. This means we can achieve sidechaining much more naturally and do it with flexibility and creativity, and ultimately in a way that is similar to that of the "hardware"-studio. I can see your point that the method used by db-audioware might be quicker to set up when you're just doing plain ducking. But in my opinion sidechaining is much more than that. It should allow you to do all sorts of processing to your sidechain signal and route it to where you want....that's the whole creative, flexible and fun part of sidechaining. The only way I see this possible is by using the method used by hardware units; ie. having a stereo sidechain input that you can route whatever to. That does require a flexible host, but I honestly believe the pressure should be on hosts to allow this sort of thing and allow it to be done easily.

Best regards,
Rune

db-audioware sidechain implementation...