Shitting on our inheritance (extended rant)
- KVRAF
- 5703 posts since 8 Dec, 2004 from The Twin Cities
Within all seriousness.
Does everyone really not get how lucky we musicians of today are?
Because it really seems like people don't get this.
I mean, if people around a place like this, a hive of applied audio-technological activity, don't get it, then certainly the less well informed are even less likely to.
And people around here really don't seem to get this.
This is not out of ignorance. The relevant information is all in plain sight. But despite this, one can't help but notice that people complain all of the time.
I mean, its incessant.
It's not just the 'warez kiddies' demanding help with the stolen software they can't figure out in less than an hour (though that is, of course, annoying). It is the constant complaining about everything.
From features that are lacking in a particular host, to prices charged for software that absolutely no one needs to use if they don't want to; from how many freeloaders there are, to how much crappy freeware there is; from p2p networks to the RIAA and its enforcers; from how overlimited every crappy pop song is, to how crappy pop songs have become these days; wherever one looks there is something to bitch about.
It isn't an isolated problem, it is an attitude problem.
It is a tendency to be querulous and whiny instead of curious and respectful. It is a preference for dialogue about what is hated and risible over what inspires awe and humility.
And it is a lack of historical perspective.
We are so wrapped up in our own time, that very few people cultivate a sense of what it was really like to live in other times. This is natural enough, especially among people whose area of expertise is a particular group of technologies. But it can lead to a myopia that can make a very positive reality seem like something worthy of one long bitch fest.
Because, make no mistake about this, this is the best time in history to be a creative musician. If you are a composer looking to hear your every idea, an instrumentalist trying to record your playing for posterity, a band trying to make a name for itself, or any person with music in your head that you want to hear coming out of your speakers, the times in which we live are at least 1000 times better to be born into than any previous era in history.
I mean, is anyone in their right mind a true musical luddite? Is anyone really nostalgic for those wonderful millennia before 1877 when no one could hear any musician unless they actually were in the same room as them?
Think of it. Think of what this means: In 1877, Edison patented the cylinder phonograph. This was the first known method of recording sound events.
Lets say that again:
THE FIRST KNOWN METHOD FOR RECORDING SOUND EVENTS WAS INVENTED IN 1877.
Which means that for most of recorded human history (dating from say, 3000 BC), when a musician died, they took all of their music with them.
Ouch.
Just think: Coleman Hawkins, Count Basie, John Bonham, Jimi Hendrix, all gone without a trace.
OUCH.
Thelonious Monk, Earl Hines, Oscar Pettiford…well, you get the point: EVERYONE. Dead, gone, a fading memory for a few years and then…nothing.
The only way out of this was if you became a composer, because composers could preserve their ideas through notation. This notation stuff was a petty neat invention to be sure. But wow, what a lot of things it didn't capture. All of the things that make the difference between a great performance and a shitty one are completely lost in the abstraction of note heads and ledger lines.
But it was actually even worse than I have let on. Because musicians and people interested in music had to cope not only with limitations of time, but with limitations of location as well. The whole process that created British pop music in the 60's, I.e. people listening to recordings made in America and basing their music on their unique understanding of them, would have been not just impossible, but unthinkable. Jazz itself would be unthinkable, or at least very different, for similar reasons.
OK, so recording technology took about 85-90 years to go from indentations on a wax cylinder to get to the first high fidelity multitrack tape recorders. These 3 or 4 track machines changed the world of music all over again, because they allowed people to create sonic events that never actually occurred in real time. For the first time, people could sing with their selves, could jam with their selves, could create a whole band with one person. Exciting stuff back in 1960.
But most people were never given the opportunity to sing with themselves, because high fidelity recording technology was, from its inception, really, really expensive. The equipment that the Beatles used to make 'Sgt. Peppers' cost a small fortune. Most musicians could only dream of getting to use it.
Today, anyone with a 400$ computer, a 200$ interface, and an internet portal can do things that the Beatles of Sgt. Peppers couldn't have imagined. If you add another 150$ to get a cheap condenser mike, you can sing with yourself as many times as you want. You can, quite literally, be a whole choir section.
You can, in fact, do just about anything.
Even if you can't play an instrument (at one point, an absolutely essential precursor to 'being a musician'), you can still program parts and play samples, or play synths, or any of an infinite number of combinations thereof.
None of this will sound like Beethoven played by the BBC Symphony Orchestra, and certainly, the super cheap setup we are talking about will lack some of the subtle beauties of super high end gear. But it is still enough to provide someone who just wants to create great music with all of the tools they really need.
Pretty cool, don't you think?
I mean, when we are bitching about everything; while we are bemoaning the fate of our poor and writhing over the injustices that we see everywhere; while we are tallying up the list of why this modern world sucks in every way, we really should remember that THIS IS THE BEST TIME EVER to be a musician or music enthusiast of any sort. Anyone anywhere can jam with anyone else from anywhere, and listen to music from anywhere, and from any time.
This is a really, really wonderful thing. And failing to appreciate it is an insult to those from our past who created so much with so much less.
Thank you and have a good day.
Does everyone really not get how lucky we musicians of today are?
Because it really seems like people don't get this.
I mean, if people around a place like this, a hive of applied audio-technological activity, don't get it, then certainly the less well informed are even less likely to.
And people around here really don't seem to get this.
This is not out of ignorance. The relevant information is all in plain sight. But despite this, one can't help but notice that people complain all of the time.
I mean, its incessant.
It's not just the 'warez kiddies' demanding help with the stolen software they can't figure out in less than an hour (though that is, of course, annoying). It is the constant complaining about everything.
From features that are lacking in a particular host, to prices charged for software that absolutely no one needs to use if they don't want to; from how many freeloaders there are, to how much crappy freeware there is; from p2p networks to the RIAA and its enforcers; from how overlimited every crappy pop song is, to how crappy pop songs have become these days; wherever one looks there is something to bitch about.
It isn't an isolated problem, it is an attitude problem.
It is a tendency to be querulous and whiny instead of curious and respectful. It is a preference for dialogue about what is hated and risible over what inspires awe and humility.
And it is a lack of historical perspective.
We are so wrapped up in our own time, that very few people cultivate a sense of what it was really like to live in other times. This is natural enough, especially among people whose area of expertise is a particular group of technologies. But it can lead to a myopia that can make a very positive reality seem like something worthy of one long bitch fest.
Because, make no mistake about this, this is the best time in history to be a creative musician. If you are a composer looking to hear your every idea, an instrumentalist trying to record your playing for posterity, a band trying to make a name for itself, or any person with music in your head that you want to hear coming out of your speakers, the times in which we live are at least 1000 times better to be born into than any previous era in history.
I mean, is anyone in their right mind a true musical luddite? Is anyone really nostalgic for those wonderful millennia before 1877 when no one could hear any musician unless they actually were in the same room as them?
Think of it. Think of what this means: In 1877, Edison patented the cylinder phonograph. This was the first known method of recording sound events.
Lets say that again:
THE FIRST KNOWN METHOD FOR RECORDING SOUND EVENTS WAS INVENTED IN 1877.
Which means that for most of recorded human history (dating from say, 3000 BC), when a musician died, they took all of their music with them.
Ouch.
Just think: Coleman Hawkins, Count Basie, John Bonham, Jimi Hendrix, all gone without a trace.
OUCH.
Thelonious Monk, Earl Hines, Oscar Pettiford…well, you get the point: EVERYONE. Dead, gone, a fading memory for a few years and then…nothing.
The only way out of this was if you became a composer, because composers could preserve their ideas through notation. This notation stuff was a petty neat invention to be sure. But wow, what a lot of things it didn't capture. All of the things that make the difference between a great performance and a shitty one are completely lost in the abstraction of note heads and ledger lines.
But it was actually even worse than I have let on. Because musicians and people interested in music had to cope not only with limitations of time, but with limitations of location as well. The whole process that created British pop music in the 60's, I.e. people listening to recordings made in America and basing their music on their unique understanding of them, would have been not just impossible, but unthinkable. Jazz itself would be unthinkable, or at least very different, for similar reasons.
OK, so recording technology took about 85-90 years to go from indentations on a wax cylinder to get to the first high fidelity multitrack tape recorders. These 3 or 4 track machines changed the world of music all over again, because they allowed people to create sonic events that never actually occurred in real time. For the first time, people could sing with their selves, could jam with their selves, could create a whole band with one person. Exciting stuff back in 1960.
But most people were never given the opportunity to sing with themselves, because high fidelity recording technology was, from its inception, really, really expensive. The equipment that the Beatles used to make 'Sgt. Peppers' cost a small fortune. Most musicians could only dream of getting to use it.
Today, anyone with a 400$ computer, a 200$ interface, and an internet portal can do things that the Beatles of Sgt. Peppers couldn't have imagined. If you add another 150$ to get a cheap condenser mike, you can sing with yourself as many times as you want. You can, quite literally, be a whole choir section.
You can, in fact, do just about anything.
Even if you can't play an instrument (at one point, an absolutely essential precursor to 'being a musician'), you can still program parts and play samples, or play synths, or any of an infinite number of combinations thereof.
None of this will sound like Beethoven played by the BBC Symphony Orchestra, and certainly, the super cheap setup we are talking about will lack some of the subtle beauties of super high end gear. But it is still enough to provide someone who just wants to create great music with all of the tools they really need.
Pretty cool, don't you think?
I mean, when we are bitching about everything; while we are bemoaning the fate of our poor and writhing over the injustices that we see everywhere; while we are tallying up the list of why this modern world sucks in every way, we really should remember that THIS IS THE BEST TIME EVER to be a musician or music enthusiast of any sort. Anyone anywhere can jam with anyone else from anywhere, and listen to music from anywhere, and from any time.
This is a really, really wonderful thing. And failing to appreciate it is an insult to those from our past who created so much with so much less.
Thank you and have a good day.
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- KVRian
- 1358 posts since 15 Oct, 2005 from The Far North
When I started frequenting kvr, I was shocked by the amount of bitching, moaning and complaining. Well, now I'm used to it, sort of, but it's still annoying. I'm just constantly blown away by the revolution that is vst, can't people just get on with it? You started coming here cause you're actually interested in making music, or what
Everyday I see whiny posts that are nothing more than the construction of previous non-existent problems..
Stop it now
Everyday I see whiny posts that are nothing more than the construction of previous non-existent problems..
Stop it now
- KVRist
- 487 posts since 30 May, 2002 from Scotland
very well said herodotus.... i agree entirely.
"Its my firm belief that its a mistake to hold firm beliefs"
https://soundcloud.com/biomechanoid
https://soundcloud.com/biomechanoid
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funkychickendance funkychickendance https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=78609
- KVRAF
- 2097 posts since 19 Aug, 2005 from Where Sheep May Safely Graze & They're Using A Chicken 2 Measure It
You're 100% right, Herodotus. Well said.
/funxi
/funxi
Every Potemkin village needs its idiot savant
- KVRAF
- 2861 posts since 3 May, 2003 from Germany
Wow
Impressive and yes, you are soooo right!!!
I think the whining is sadly part of the human nature
and lots of people seem to can only live when they can complain about thinks.
It's great to read in your words what IS possible for all of us nowadays,
hopefully some non-reflective getting more aware which shitloads of possibilities we all have doing music.
One problem may be with the whiners that some of them can not do great music (although they have the possibilities) but they hate to reflect this and so instead of that they start to complain and rant "this is missing and that..."
Impressive and yes, you are soooo right!!!
I think the whining is sadly part of the human nature
and lots of people seem to can only live when they can complain about thinks.
It's great to read in your words what IS possible for all of us nowadays,
hopefully some non-reflective getting more aware which shitloads of possibilities we all have doing music.
One problem may be with the whiners that some of them can not do great music (although they have the possibilities) but they hate to reflect this and so instead of that they start to complain and rant "this is missing and that..."
Symphony Nr.1
Meet the Cities Repair Team Unimportant laughter
music has become meaningless...we just keep doing it
Meet the Cities Repair Team Unimportant laughter
music has become meaningless...we just keep doing it
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- KVRist
- 380 posts since 27 Jul, 2004 from london
One of the most intelligent pieces I have seen on KVR.
I agree with every point made.
I for one would not have been able to make the music I can now without the wonderful technology.
I agree with every point made.
I for one would not have been able to make the music I can now without the wonderful technology.
Athlon 3800+ x2, 1 gig ram, 200gb SATA
Terratec 24/96 sound card, ATI all-in-wonder x600 graphics card, Windows XP Home SP2, Steinberg Cubase SX2, Reason 2.5
Terratec 24/96 sound card, ATI all-in-wonder x600 graphics card, Windows XP Home SP2, Steinberg Cubase SX2, Reason 2.5
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Colonel Flashback Colonel Flashback https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=57766
- KVRian
- 898 posts since 12 Feb, 2005 from Green Man Inn
post is much too long, only read the first 3 lines
also can't stand the white font on blue background
please post a much shorter version again, on black background, thanks
also can't stand the white font on blue background
please post a much shorter version again, on black background, thanks
- GRRRRRRR!
- 17776 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere you're not!
How cool would that be!?!herodotus wrote:Just think: Coleman Hawkins, Count Basie, John Bonham, Jimi Hendrix, all gone without a trace.
OUCH.
Thelonious Monk, Earl Hines, Oscar Pettiford…well, you get the point: EVERYONE. Dead, gone, a fading memory for a few years and then…nothing.
So what? doesn't mean it wouldn't be awhole lot better if everyone did what I told them to.I mean, when we are bitching about everything; while we are bemoaning the fate of our poor and writhing over the injustices that we see everywhere; while we are tallying up the list of why this modern world sucks in every way, we really should remember that THIS IS THE BEST TIME EVER to be a musician or music enthusiast of any sort.
Sure, but I'm positive I could come up with a better one without too much effort. Something along the liones of "f**k those pooftas".This is a really, really wonderful thing. And failing to appreciate it is an insult to those from our past who created so much with so much less.
NOVAkILL : Legion GO, AMD Z1x, 16GB RAM, Win11 | Audient EVO 8 | Lumi Keys | Studio Pro 8
Korg Odyssey, bx-oberhausen, Proxima, PolyMax, GR8, JP6K, Union, Atomika,
Invader 2, Flow Motion, Olga, TRK 01, Thorn, Spire, VG Iron
Korg Odyssey, bx-oberhausen, Proxima, PolyMax, GR8, JP6K, Union, Atomika,
Invader 2, Flow Motion, Olga, TRK 01, Thorn, Spire, VG Iron
- KVRAF
- 1955 posts since 5 Sep, 2003 from Denmark
Interesting, and sympathetic, thoughts. I don't agree with you on all points.
1: Features and faults of software
2: Business model of software
3: Business model of music
4: Current state of music
1 & 2: This site is about software. KVR's existence alone is a celebration of the wonderful world of music software. An example such as the cult like following of EXT or similar should be enough to refute your bitching on these two counts. Yes there is a tendency to wining unnecessarily. But much is true, and developers and music software companies can and should learn much from the discussions here and elsewhere. You could wish for a more refined use of language and a more balanced discourse, but that is details compared to the whole picture. KVR is about software. KVR is big because there is a lot of interest in music software.
3: I'm not with you here. Are you bitching about those who oppose the methods and philosophy of RIAA and the established record business? The exact entities that want the future to never happen? They're the ones guilty of the commercial music scene, where joy of music is replaced with marketing, which leads to
4: Commercial music today is not in a good state. Music is however. And our café is a fine example of that. Much music posted there, that surpasses most commercial offerings. And you still get threads like the one that heralded the Lips as the greatest band in the world. While exaggerated, you can't call that bitching.
As I understand it you're bitching about people bitching about four different areas. And it's basically wrong to bitch about these things, because now is the best time ever to be a musician.herodotus wrote:From features that are lacking in a particular host, to prices charged for software that absolutely no one needs to use if they don't want to; from how many freeloaders there are, to how much crappy freeware there is; from p2p networks to the RIAA and its enforcers; from how overlimited every crappy pop song is, to how crappy pop songs have become these days; wherever one looks there is something to bitch about.
1: Features and faults of software
2: Business model of software
3: Business model of music
4: Current state of music
1 & 2: This site is about software. KVR's existence alone is a celebration of the wonderful world of music software. An example such as the cult like following of EXT or similar should be enough to refute your bitching on these two counts. Yes there is a tendency to wining unnecessarily. But much is true, and developers and music software companies can and should learn much from the discussions here and elsewhere. You could wish for a more refined use of language and a more balanced discourse, but that is details compared to the whole picture. KVR is about software. KVR is big because there is a lot of interest in music software.
3: I'm not with you here. Are you bitching about those who oppose the methods and philosophy of RIAA and the established record business? The exact entities that want the future to never happen? They're the ones guilty of the commercial music scene, where joy of music is replaced with marketing, which leads to
4: Commercial music today is not in a good state. Music is however. And our café is a fine example of that. Much music posted there, that surpasses most commercial offerings. And you still get threads like the one that heralded the Lips as the greatest band in the world. While exaggerated, you can't call that bitching.
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
I'm no luddite thats for sure! But I do think that back when when no one could hear any musician unless they actually were in the same room as them, it was easier to earn a living as a musician.herodotus wrote:
I mean, is anyone in their right mind a true musical luddite? Is anyone really nostalgic for those wonderful millennia before 1877 when no one could hear any musician unless they actually were in the same room as them?
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- KVRian
- 1343 posts since 26 Aug, 2005 from Netherlands
I so agree with this. 15 years ago (heck even 6 years ago) I couldn't have dreamed of the possibilities that are available to me now - practically for free..herodotus wrote:Because, make no mistake about this, this is the best time in history to be a creative musician.
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- KVRAF
- 1530 posts since 20 Feb, 2003
Pfffft. Best time to be a muso ? Really ? When canned music and corporate control have sucked the life and soul out of 99% of music ?
Have you read much of everyday life *before* the curse of recorded music ? People actually used to SING with each other. In pubs and homes, on holidays, on ships, everywhere - people sang. They had songs to work by, to travel by, to drink by, to dance by. People sang and played real music they generated themselves.
And every town had a band. And the band would play at all and every event of significance in the community. People didn't hear canned recorded crap - they heard people they knew actually play.
And that means songs with melody, and with words that had some meaning. Now we have trans-national frothy bullshite which means nothing, is controlled by faceless corporates and is driven by a completely vaccuous sense of fashion. It's disgusting and appalling. It's too sick to even call "culture". It's a mere extruded global lowest-common-taste product.
OK, so a few of us can do a poor simulation of an orchestra, or record 48 tracks of electronica. So what. Faced with a tidal wave of global machine-pap where does that get the music-listenbing public or musicians ? Does it help anyone that you can hear Mozart in a shopping centre ? That's the debasement of music, not something to celebrate.
There has hardly ever been a WORSE time for music.
And these days can a half-decent muso make a good living from playing - NO. There were umpteen opportunities before recorded music for people who could play an instrument.
The world used to be all about LIVE music. Played by people you knew, and playing songs and music which had some relevance to your own life. It helped bind a community, involve people, give them something everyone could share in as particpants.
VSTis are not the golden age of music. That's delusional double-think. Instead think about the role of musicians, the listening public, the interaction and relevance of music to the your own community, and the value that a brilliant musical work has in the mind of the listener.
Have you read much of everyday life *before* the curse of recorded music ? People actually used to SING with each other. In pubs and homes, on holidays, on ships, everywhere - people sang. They had songs to work by, to travel by, to drink by, to dance by. People sang and played real music they generated themselves.
And every town had a band. And the band would play at all and every event of significance in the community. People didn't hear canned recorded crap - they heard people they knew actually play.
And that means songs with melody, and with words that had some meaning. Now we have trans-national frothy bullshite which means nothing, is controlled by faceless corporates and is driven by a completely vaccuous sense of fashion. It's disgusting and appalling. It's too sick to even call "culture". It's a mere extruded global lowest-common-taste product.
OK, so a few of us can do a poor simulation of an orchestra, or record 48 tracks of electronica. So what. Faced with a tidal wave of global machine-pap where does that get the music-listenbing public or musicians ? Does it help anyone that you can hear Mozart in a shopping centre ? That's the debasement of music, not something to celebrate.
There has hardly ever been a WORSE time for music.
And these days can a half-decent muso make a good living from playing - NO. There were umpteen opportunities before recorded music for people who could play an instrument.
The world used to be all about LIVE music. Played by people you knew, and playing songs and music which had some relevance to your own life. It helped bind a community, involve people, give them something everyone could share in as particpants.
VSTis are not the golden age of music. That's delusional double-think. Instead think about the role of musicians, the listening public, the interaction and relevance of music to the your own community, and the value that a brilliant musical work has in the mind of the listener.
- Beware the Quoth
- 35449 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
Not when I can, with a few minutes on the internet, find half a dozen new and interesting artists from all points on the globe.Cabinfever wrote:Pfffft. Best time to be a muso ? Really ? When canned music and corporate control have sucked the life and soul out of 99% of music ?
Yes.Have you read much of everyday life *before* the curse of recorded music ?
Wow. Thats what I do. Except for the singing. And people listen to it. And some of them like it. Except they dont need to be in the same pub, or home, or ship, or whatever. They can be anywhere.People actually used to SING with each other. In pubs and homes, on holidays, on ships, everywhere - people sang. They had songs to work by, to travel by, to drink by, to dance by. People sang and played real music they generated themselves.
What's the relevance of 'actually play' here? Apart from some kind of irrelevant mystique which conflates the worth of a piece of music with someone's ability to play it?And every town had a band. And the band would play at all and every event of significance in the community. People didn't hear canned recorded crap - they heard people they knew actually play.
'As I was walking, I saw a fair maiden...'And that means songs with melody, and with words that had some meaning.
Erm, right. Apart from cultural changes, exactly what 'meaning; is there, there, that's different from anything in the charts?
I think your 'meaning' is essentially rose-tinted nostalgia.
Yes indeed we do have that. Disingenuous to forget about everything else though.Now we have trans-national frothy bullshite which means nothing, is controlled by faceless corporates and is driven by a completely vaccuous sense of fashion. It's disgusting and appalling. It's too sick to even call "culture". It's a mere extruded global lowest-common-taste product.
So - we're producing music. I mean, so what if some pissed up old farts could sing the same songs as their grandfathers in a pub 100 years ago. How do you come to the conclusion that what we can do is so worthless?OK, so a few of us can do a poor simulation of an orchestra, or record 48 tracks of electronica. So what.
Or do you spend all your time in folk clubs rehashing songs about the Clearances, or the famines, or the boat from Liverpool, or whatever the f**k it is that was so worthy back when 'people sang'.
More choice, and a better chance to reach and audience, no matter how small. But hey, lets just ognore that bit.Faced with a tidal wave of global machine-pap where does that get the music-listenbing public or musicians ?
Ah, right. Cos Mozart should have been restricted to the wealthy elite all along.Does it help anyone that you can hear Mozart in a shopping centre ? That's the debasement of music, not something to celebrate.
Please feel free to deafen yourself with heated needles insrted into your eardrums, then.There has hardly ever been a WORSE time for music.
There were umpteen opportunities for little boys who fitted up chimneys or down mineshafts before mechanisation as well.And these days can a half-decent muso make a good living from playing - NO. There were umpteen opportunities before recorded music for people who could play an instrument.
So?The world used to be all about LIVE music. Played by people you knew, and playing songs and music which had some relevance to your own life. It helped bind a community, involve people, give them something everyone could share in as particpants.
Easy to say, but 'its not live music like in the old days' aint exactly a pursuasive argument.VSTis are not the golden age of music. That's delusional double-think.
And anyways, VSTi's are only instruments; tools for the musician. There's no double-think there, unless you somehow think people shouldnt be allowed to make music unless its some old sentimental crap they sing with their mates.
Who the hell are you to define what my community is? Or what I define as value?Instead think about the role of musicians, the listening public, the interaction and relevance of music to the your own community, and the value that a brilliant musical work has in the mind of the listener.
Sorry, mate, but what a load of pompous, posturing, backwards-looking bollocks.
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."