A reverb that does not sum to mono

[three_eyed_otter]

Does anybody know of a reverb that doesn't sum to mono? I am trying to run a reverb unit on a buss in SONAR and I cannot get the stereo image correct because all of the verbs I have sum to mono. Or so I've been told.

have a good one
3Eo

[dreamkeeper]

*sigh*

You haven't been told that all your verbs sum to mono. You have been told that no reverb will preserve the stereo position of its input signal, let alone different positions of multiple signals - because that's not what a reverb is supposed to do, it's against its nature so to say.

werner

[aciddose]

seperate your channels and apply a mono verb to each one.

[Debutante]

There are several reverbs that keep the stereo positioning of your instruments, I believe they're called true stereo reverbs. If I understand you correctly then the following FREEBIES can do this:

Ambience
Buzzroom Roomverb
CuteVST Tap Reverberator
PSP Springverb (Magware)
Reverbomatic
SIR
NBM Studioverb
Voxengo Oldskool

All of these plugins will place your reverberated signal where you position your instrument. If you want to check them, just hard pan a dry signal and listen for the positioning of the all wet signal. If it stays center no matter where the dry signal is, then you know you have mono all the time.

[Kiwburger]

WTF? I don't know about Sonar, but if it is like Cubase SX you might be doing this:

In Cubase SX, if you insert a stereo effect (such as a reverb) into a Mono track (such as a vocal) - you get a mono reverb, which is the left and right summed to mono.

In Logic - that doesn't happen. But in Cubase it does. The reason given is a poor one, but basically they are modeling an anlog desk. A the insert in a mono channel in an analog is only mono, so you can insert compressors and eq's and stuff. You would never Insert a reverb on an analog desk.

SO if that is your problem - learn how to use Effect Groups or Buses, or whatever Sonar calls them, and use your effect sends.

Or convert your mono track to stereo - but that's a bit wasteful.

Most plugin reverbs are stereo, in other words if you pan your signal to the left channel only, you only get reverb from the left channel. That's not very natural - because in a real hall you would still get a room full of reverb even if you were right up against the left wall. So some reverbs (mainly the hardware ones) sum the input to mono, so you always get a stereo output, regardless of the input. There are some better units that have two seperate stereo processes, treating left and right seperately and giving a stereo field from each one. They tend to be more expensive.

[Debutante]

*sigh*

... because that's not what a reverb is supposed to do, it's against its nature so to say.

werner

I'm not so sure. Most of the reverbs I've tried (freebies mainly) are mono, by about a 4/5:1 ratio. Even Glaceverb which I love so much can only place the wet signal center. More of the commercial ones I tried were true stereo... R66 and Silverspike I remember distinctly. It starts to get complicated when you can twist rooms and have early and late reflections to think about as well.

You can also add the following to my previous list:

Ariesverb - does stereo verb, but the settings need to be tweaked so.

[dreamkeeper]

Ambience
...

All of these plugins will place your reverberated signal where you position your instrument.

Er... wrong! Didn't check with the others, but Ambience clearly does not behave the way you are suggesting.

[dreamkeeper]

*sigh*

... because that's not what a reverb is supposed to do, it's against its nature so to say.

werner

I'm not so sure. Most of the reverbs I've tried (freebies mainly) are mono, by about a 4/5:1 ratio. Even Glaceverb which I love so much can only place the wet signal center. More of the commercial ones I tried were true stereo... R66 and Silverspike I remember distinctly. It starts to get complicated when you can twist rooms and have early and late reflections to think about as well.

It's not about mono or stereo reverb, 3Eo got this wrong. Can you show me just one stereo reverb that would output a hard-panned wet signal if fed with a hard-panned input? This would mean that both channels have to be processed separately, a thing that's hardly desirable for a reverb.

[aciddose]

my verb takes a stereo input, you'll get a responce that balances out over time if the echo control is used but otherwise it will be fully stereo.

the main delay stages produce 'local diffusion', like the sound bouncing off objects in the near field local to each channel. the output delay stages produce the inital delay, and global feedback is used which does something simmilar to the diffused signals bouncing off walls.

there are only 5 delay lines used per channel, yet it still sounds fairly full.

Code: Select all

vfa += m32(verb[6].ALLPASSi(verb[5].ALLPASSi(verb[2].ALLPASSi(verb[1].ALLPASSi(((i[0]>>2) + m32(verb[9].ls, echo)))))) - vfa, damp);
vfb += m32(verb[7].ALLPASSi(verb[4].ALLPASSi(verb[3].ALLPASSi(verb[0].ALLPASSi(((i[1]>>2) + m32(verb[8].ls, echo)))))) - vfb, damp);
o[0] = _CLIPR(verb[8].RUN(vfa), 0x17FFFFFF) << 2;
o[1] = _CLIPR(verb[9].RUN(vfb), 0x17FFFFFF) << 2;

the problem with such a design is you get an effect which sounds very 'in front' and doesnt have much depth to it. to get the depth, you need to have a more complex feedback system and often with filters/compression going on in it so the different channels have more direct interactions.

that i think is the reason most reverbs are not capable of isolation between channels. people expect that 'depth', and you dont get it without interaction.

[friteuse]

It's not about mono or stereo reverb, 3Eo got this wrong. Can you show me just one stereo reverb that would output a hard-panned wet signal if fed with a hard-panned input? This would mean that both channels have to be processed separately, a thing that's hardly desirable for a reverb.

Eh, Roomverb, SpaceDesigner, ...at least when I last tried them

[Debutante]

Ambience
...

All of these plugins will place your reverberated signal where you position your instrument.

Er... wrong! Didn't check with the others, but Ambience clearly does not behave the way you are suggesting.

Er... not! It depends no your settings, as it does with alot if not all of them. Why don't you try increasing the width and check again...

[Debutante]

*sigh*

... because that's not what a reverb is supposed to do, it's against its nature so to say.

werner

I'm not so sure. Most of the reverbs I've tried (freebies mainly) are mono, by about a 4/5:1 ratio. Even Glaceverb which I love so much can only place the wet signal center. More of the commercial ones I tried were true stereo... R66 and Silverspike I remember distinctly. It starts to get complicated when you can twist rooms and have early and late reflections to think about as well.

It's not about mono or stereo reverb, 3Eo got this wrong. Can you show me just one stereo reverb that would output a hard-panned wet signal if fed with a hard-panned input? This would mean that both channels have to be processed separately, a thing that's hardly desirable for a reverb.

I don't understand the confusion here one bit. This is so simple to set up and chek that I fail to see what's happening...

1. Grab a free reverb available here called Reverb-O-matic or any of the ones available in my list above. Or better yet alot of people have BuzRoomverb - put the width to maximum.
2. Place a hit of your choice like a hat ot a clap or something in a channel.
3. Route you noise to the Reverb-O-matic/Buzzroom plugin and remove ALL the dry signal.
4. Now hard pan your source and tell me what you hear...

How hard is this???

EDIT: Once again it depends on your settings. Its definately easiest to hear with Reverb-O-matic, Voxengo's, and BuzRoom plugins. On some settings in Ambience it's not so apparent. just remember to REMOVE ALL THE DRY SIGNAL TO DETERMINE WHERE THE REVERB IS!!!!!!


...and I for one find this *extremely* desirable sometimes.

[Debutante]

...and when you're done, load up FreeverbToo or Glaceverb and do the same thing and tell me you don't hear a difference....

[dreamkeeper]

Ok, ok... Buzzroom does it. Ambience does it NOT, there's always signal on both output channels (and I'll repeat: that's what is to be expected with a reverb imho!). BTW: cranking the width parameter was the first thing I did when I tried it.

[dreamkeeper]

This is so simple to set up and chek that I fail to see what's happening...

You mean like the very 1st plug on your list?