Hello All VSTi Pianists,
In a previous thread that I started I requested help to get variations on a single piano note that is repeated. Well due to a thread http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... ight=piano discussing the pianoteck I visited http://www.pianoteq.com/audiodemos and found just what I have been looking for, "Phase variations in repetitions". Click to hear the variations.
Is there a way to do this with a sampled piano like the ArtVista Virtual Grand Piano? Perhaps with greater variations? Midi FX or audio FX? It need not be "Phase variations in repetitions" but any means to get a variation on a repeated piano note.
Phase variations in repetitions on a sampled piano
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- KVRAF
- 6078 posts since 27 Jul, 2001 from Tarpon Springs, Florida, USA
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 6078 posts since 27 Jul, 2001 from Tarpon Springs, Florida, USA
Hello Everyone,
In a previous thread that I started I requested help to get variations on a single piano note that is repeated. Well due to a thread http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... ight=piano discussing the pianoteck I visited http://www.pianoteq.com/audiodemos and found just what I have been looking for, "Phase variations in repetitions". Click to hear the variations.
Is there a way to do this with a sampled piano like the ArtVista Virtual Grand Piano? Perhaps with greater variations? Midi FX or audio FX? It need not be "Phase variations in repetitions" but any means to get a variation on a repeated piano note.
Do most musicians prefer identical repeated note? It seems to me the variation of a repeated note sounds nicer on most songs.
In a previous thread that I started I requested help to get variations on a single piano note that is repeated. Well due to a thread http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... ight=piano discussing the pianoteck I visited http://www.pianoteq.com/audiodemos and found just what I have been looking for, "Phase variations in repetitions". Click to hear the variations.
Is there a way to do this with a sampled piano like the ArtVista Virtual Grand Piano? Perhaps with greater variations? Midi FX or audio FX? It need not be "Phase variations in repetitions" but any means to get a variation on a repeated piano note.
Do most musicians prefer identical repeated note? It seems to me the variation of a repeated note sounds nicer on most songs.
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- KVRian
- 866 posts since 30 Jul, 2004
You can't get what you want from MIDI pre-processing or audio post-processing. It needs to be a function of the instrument itself, where the same note at the same velocity will trigger one of several samples instead of always the same one. This is a feature that I've seen in drum samplers, and it could be applied to piano, though it would cause the already large size of the sample set to be multiplied by 2 or more. For all I know, high-end sample-based piano instruments like Ivory do this already.
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- Beware the Quoth
- 35449 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
Why not? A little bit of parameter-modulated compression and filtering should be able to produce a certain amount of subtle variation...kevink wrote:You can't get what you want from MIDI pre-processing or audio post-processing.
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 6078 posts since 27 Jul, 2001 from Tarpon Springs, Florida, USA
Whyterrabbyt,
I agree with you. Some one creative can simulate the "phase variations in repetition" by making a MFX or VSTmidiFX (if on does not already exist). Play with the attack, compress, filter, detune slightly, play with sustain. On the audio side randomly add a little phasing or …? Not good at these things but I see no reason why some variation random or defined cannot be done by midi fx and even as an audio FX.
My question is how can I do this now. I had only limited success when I posted a similar question in the Effects forum http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... ight=piano
Strangely some months back I accidentally found an FX which I played with and attained an effect that was close to what I am seeking. I saved the patch but my hard drive crashed, so I lost it. Unfortunately I cannot recall if was an MFX or VST midi FX or even the name of the FX. I have been search through all my midi FX but have had no luck repeating the experience. Too bad. I often write things down but not this time. I must have thought that I would remember. Well, I don't remember!!! So here I am asking for help. HEEEELP!!!
I agree with you. Some one creative can simulate the "phase variations in repetition" by making a MFX or VSTmidiFX (if on does not already exist). Play with the attack, compress, filter, detune slightly, play with sustain. On the audio side randomly add a little phasing or …? Not good at these things but I see no reason why some variation random or defined cannot be done by midi fx and even as an audio FX.
My question is how can I do this now. I had only limited success when I posted a similar question in the Effects forum http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... ight=piano
Strangely some months back I accidentally found an FX which I played with and attained an effect that was close to what I am seeking. I saved the patch but my hard drive crashed, so I lost it. Unfortunately I cannot recall if was an MFX or VST midi FX or even the name of the FX. I have been search through all my midi FX but have had no luck repeating the experience. Too bad. I often write things down but not this time. I must have thought that I would remember. Well, I don't remember!!! So here I am asking for help. HEEEELP!!!
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- Beware the Quoth
- 35449 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
As far as MFX plugins goes, the Humanize plugin from Frank's MIDI Plugins should do it. (http://www.midi-plugins.de/) Humanisator by Toby Bear might do as well as a pure VST MIDI plugin (http://www.tobybear.de/p_midibag.html). See http://www.midiplugins.com/ for other alternatives.Kalamata Kid wrote:Whyterrabbyt,
I agree with you. Some one creative can simulate the "phase variations in repetition" by making a MFX or VSTmidiFX (if on does not already exist). Play with the attack, compress, filter, detune slightly, play with sustain.
Ive done something like this for audio in one of the 'modular' effects programs (QuantumFX to be precise). Basically I set up three slow LFO's to modulate the length of a short delay, a compressor's attack parameter, and a low-pass filter's frequency setting. You could do the same sort of thing using separate VST plugins in a host like energyXT.On the audio side randomly add a little phasing or …? Not good at these things but I see no reason why some variation random or defined cannot be done by midi fx and even as an audio FX.
ONe last thing; the piano you mention (the ArtVista Virtual Grand Piano) seems to be based on the Kontakt Player. The full version of Kontakt could be used to support something like this 'in the box' using its Kontakt-Script programming language.
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
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- Beware the Quoth
- 35449 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
As far as MFX plugins goes, the Humanize plugin from Frank's MIDI Plugins should do it. (http://www.midi-plugins.de/) Humanisator by Toby Bear might do as well as a pure VST MIDI plugin (http://www.tobybear.de/p_midibag.html). See http://www.midiplugins.com/ for other alternatives.Kalamata Kid wrote:Whyterrabbyt,
I agree with you. Some one creative can simulate the "phase variations in repetition" by making a MFX or VSTmidiFX (if on does not already exist). Play with the attack, compress, filter, detune slightly, play with sustain.
Ive done something like this for audio in one of the 'modular' effects programs (QuantumFX to be precise). Basically I set up three slow LFO's to modulate the length of a short delay, a compressor's attack parameter, and a low-pass filter's frequency setting. You could do the same sort of thing using separate VST plugins in a host like energyXT.On the audio side randomly add a little phasing or …? Not good at these things but I see no reason why some variation random or defined cannot be done by midi fx and even as an audio FX.
ONe last thing; the piano you mention (the ArtVista Virtual Grand Piano) seems to be based on the Kontakt Player. The full version of Kontakt could be used to support something like this 'in the box' using its Kontakt-Script programming language.
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 6078 posts since 27 Jul, 2001 from Tarpon Springs, Florida, USA
Re Toby Bear Humanisator: I was not able to get any variation on the pitch and modulation. The Velocity and delay which I do not need work great. Any suggestions?
Re Franks Humanize. I was not able to get it to work. Tried many variations on the graphs but no luck. Any suggestions?
Could this be done using cc messages? Just thinking out loud random or ordered note duration on repetitive notes would give an illusion of variation. Here is the list of what would might be included to get a real time repetitive note variety:
slight detuning
note duration
variation in attack
compression
filtering
Note important to my cause but I include anyway
Velocity
delay
Other suggestions?
Re Franks Humanize. I was not able to get it to work. Tried many variations on the graphs but no luck. Any suggestions?
Could this be done using cc messages? Just thinking out loud random or ordered note duration on repetitive notes would give an illusion of variation. Here is the list of what would might be included to get a real time repetitive note variety:
slight detuning
note duration
variation in attack
compression
filtering
Note important to my cause but I include anyway
Velocity
delay
Other suggestions?
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- Beware the Quoth
- 35449 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
Depending on the synth/sampler, velocity can be linked to pitch/modulation. So it depends on what you're using.Kalamata Kid wrote:Re Toby Bear Humanisator: I was not able to get any variation on the pitch and modulation. The Velocity and delay which I do not need work great. Any suggestions?
What host are you using? How are you playing the repeated notes? Is this a MIDI loop, or something else?Re Franks Humanize. I was not able to get it to work. Tried many variations on the graphs but no luck. Any suggestions?
Yes, CC messages will work. As long as the synth/sampler is set to act on them...Could this be done using cc messages? Just thinking out loud random or ordered note duration on repetitive notes would give an illusion of variation. Here is the list of what would might be included to get a real time repetitive note variety:
slight detuning
note duration
variation in attack
compression
filtering
Note important to my cause but I include anyway
Velocity
delay
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 6078 posts since 27 Jul, 2001 from Tarpon Springs, Florida, USA
In a real time situation (not a loop) I just do not like repeated notes to sound identical. It desirable by me to be able to control the variation.
I use Cubase SX3 and energyXT. My VSTi is the Virtual Grand Piano. In Cubase I tried the Track FX to get a random duration but I was not successful. I believe that the variation of midi note duration will partially give me the effect I want.
I tried Frank's Humanize Plug-in with zero success. Perhaps not intended for real time operation?
I also tried several of the TenCrazy MFX. Most didi not seem to work at all. Some did work but were not useful to me.
Any suggestions?
I use Cubase SX3 and energyXT. My VSTi is the Virtual Grand Piano. In Cubase I tried the Track FX to get a random duration but I was not successful. I believe that the variation of midi note duration will partially give me the effect I want.
I tried Frank's Humanize Plug-in with zero success. Perhaps not intended for real time operation?
I also tried several of the TenCrazy MFX. Most didi not seem to work at all. Some did work but were not useful to me.
Any suggestions?
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- KVRAF
- 7103 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden
In Vsampler you can change start offset of a sample due to a modulation value or simply Velocity.Kalamata Kid wrote: slight detuning
note duration
variation in attack
compression
filtering
Note important to my cause but I include anyway
Velocity
delay
Other suggestions?
This would makes each voice have a slightly different phase.
Repeated notes would seldom have the exact same velocity unless you use some processing after recording that does this for you, or if you do step recording.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 6078 posts since 27 Jul, 2001 from Tarpon Springs, Florida, USA
lfm,
I suspect some phase modulation will give some of the effect I am looking for. And this may be all I need.
I have heard this effect on several occasions, the variation on a repeated note. It sounds very good to my ear. Its great for improvisation. Now how can I do on the Virtual Grand Piano? I know someone has the answer to accomplish this variation on a repeated note in a simple way. So please reply.
I a repeating here but strangely some months back I accidentally found an FX which I played with and attained an effect that was close to what I am seeking. I saved the patch but my hard drive crashed, so I lost it. Unfortunately I cannot recall if was an MFX or VST midi FX or even the name of the FX. I have been search through all my midi FX but have had no luck repeating the experience. Too bad. I often write things down but not this time. I must have thought that I would remember. Well, I don't remember!!! So here I am asking for help. If I did this by accident It cannot be that difficult to do IMHO.
I suspect some phase modulation will give some of the effect I am looking for. And this may be all I need.
I have heard this effect on several occasions, the variation on a repeated note. It sounds very good to my ear. Its great for improvisation. Now how can I do on the Virtual Grand Piano? I know someone has the answer to accomplish this variation on a repeated note in a simple way. So please reply.
I a repeating here but strangely some months back I accidentally found an FX which I played with and attained an effect that was close to what I am seeking. I saved the patch but my hard drive crashed, so I lost it. Unfortunately I cannot recall if was an MFX or VST midi FX or even the name of the FX. I have been search through all my midi FX but have had no luck repeating the experience. Too bad. I often write things down but not this time. I must have thought that I would remember. Well, I don't remember!!! So here I am asking for help. If I did this by accident It cannot be that difficult to do IMHO.