A question of one aspect of Chord theory

[Coxy]

Hey all, I'm taking time to learn music theory, but going at my own pace with a not too hard core approach. Mainly from sites around the net. And peicing together info here and there. I have always had an ear for what sounds good together and what dosen't. For me it's just learning and putting names to the chords and scales I am already subconciously using.

A quick question as I am reading up on chord progressions that go with melodys. A source tells me I can use chord progressions based around the first, fourth and fifth of the scale.

I'm slightly unlcear about this but know it will be a simple answer so am reluctent to ask lol.

What is the 5th of a scale for exmple? lets use C-major for the sake.

Do they mean using scales based around perfect fourth and fifth notes in the scale etc?

Thanks

[tee boy]

They are talking about the 5th degree of the scale, or the 'dominant'.

So if we're in the key of C Major, our dominant (5th) is G. The dominant is a really significant chord as it has a strong 'pull' towards the 'tonic' (the 1st degree, ie, C). This function of the dominant enables it to facilitate modulation (changing to other keys).

Quite often you'll find progressions in roman numerals to.

TB

[mr]

So.... first, fourth and fifth means
C F G and G calls C again. You can see them also as
I IV V

[camsr]

Yes this is called an Authentic Cadence, and it's VERY common. Alternatively, in the minor key (A minor for example), the progression would go A D E, or i - iv - V or even i - iv - v.

You can still have an authentic cadence without using C F and G as the root notes of the chord, but using the 3rd or even the 5th interval of the chord (not the scale). For example C E G is C Major, but we can write a chord as E G C or G C E. That is called a chord inversion and is written a little differently than just I.

If you want to hear an example of an authentic cadence (in minor), click the link in my sig and listen to the track "Needs Tambourine"

[annode]

If i've got it right,here's the caveman explaination;

Any scale you play has the key root as one of the notes.
Counting up from that note as you play an assending scale of notes,for instance.
The third note will be the 3rd,the 4th note the 4th and so on I think.
Not sure if this is right...I have been eating those berries again...

[JumpingJackFlash]

Ok, as I have a few minutes, I will attempt to explain the basic harmonic theory you talk about.

To put it very simply; imagine the white notes of a piano. There are 7 different ones, following the alphabet, so A,B,C,D,E,F,G... then instead of H, you start again at A. For any interval (whether melodic or harmonic), you include both starting and ending notes. So, a 5th higher than A is E (A=1,B=2,C=3,D=4,E=5). So, if you are in A major, the 5th chord is E major.

Now, of course all scales/keys don't use only the white notes of a piano. We also use the black notes, which are called sharps and flats. A semitone is the distance between and 2 consecutive keys on the piano. The black note immediately to the right of a white note is one semitone higher, and is called 'sharp'. The black note immediately to the left of a white note is one semitone lower, and is called 'flat'. Note: The means, the same black note can be called 2 different names. A-sharp is the same note as B-flat (because it's to the right of A, and to the left of B). Note also that 2 semitones make up one tone. (So, from A to B is ascending one tone, from A to G is descending one tone).

Make sense so far?

Major scales all have the pattern Tone, Tone, Semitone, Tone, Tone, Tone, Semitone.
Natural Minor scales all have the pattern: Tone, Semitone, Tone, Tone, Semitone, Tone, Tone. However, in the Harmonic Minor, which is more often used, the 7th note of the scale is raised one semitone.

So. Consider A major. We start on A, this is called the 'tonic', or the 'root'. Look on a keyboard and work out the rest of the notes of the major scale. You get: A, B, C-sharp, D, E, F-sharp, G-sharp, A.
For the harmonic minor scale, you get A, B, C, D, E, F, G-sharp, A. - Notice the G is sharpened (raised one semitone) because it is the 7th note of the scale.

Standard chords consists of the 1st ('root'), 3rd, and 5th notes of the scale. - So, in A major, you get A, C-sharp, E.
In A minor, you get A, C, E. - Notice the difference between them; the third of a major chord is a semitone higher than the minor one.

In music, at any given point, there is a 'key' that you're working in. Basically, this means there is one overriding scale which is used by all the horizontal parts, and is also used vertically in chords. The first step in any harmonic analysis is to identify what key you are in (note, it may change several times within a piece). We then relate the chords to that key, and we use Roman Numerals: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII

So, let's stick in A major as our key. Chord I is based on A, chord II is based on B, chord III is based on C-sharp, etc.
In a major key, chords I, IV and V are all major chords. Chords II, III and VI are all minor chords. Chord VII is diminished (ignore chord VII for now).

As you have discovered, I, IV and V are the most common chords. Although many pieces of music have been composed using only these 3 chords, there are many more interesting chord progressions using other chords. When you have mastered these simple principles, you can move on to studying chord inversions, and 7th chords.

I hope some of this helps. Let me know if you want more clarification.

[loopdon]

what a nice and clar explanation. thanks a lot

[Barbed Wire Kiss]

Yeah, great explanation.

Just one thing: What's the difference between a minor and a major chor? Or a diminished one come to that?

[robenestobenz]

Major is the most consonant, minor is less so, but still quite consonant and diminished is really quite dissonant.

As we're talking about triads (3 note chords) here:

A major triad consists of the root, a major 3rd and a 5th.
A minor one the root, minor 3rd and a fifth.
A diminished one the root, a minor third and a diminished 5th (the fifth is lowered by one step).

The major chord is so bright, simple and consonant because the root-third relationship is consonant and the root-5th is very much so.

The minor chord is less consonant because the root-minor third is not as consonant as the root-major third.

The diminished chord's dissonant quality is because not only does it have a minor 3rd, the fifth is lowered - forming the tritone interval. The tritone interval is, apart from the minor 2nd interval (the smallest interval in western music, at a space of one semitone), the most dissonant interval you can find.

The black note immediately to the right of a white note is one semitone higher, and is called 'sharp'. The black note immediately to the left of a white note is one semitone lower, and is called 'flat'. Note: The means, the same black note can be called 2 different names. A-sharp is the same note as B-flat (because it's to the right of A, and to the left of B).

Following on from this part of Jumpingjack's thorough post, I just want to mention one thing, as it had me flummoxed for quite a while. The sharp and flat spellings of a single accidental note (accidental meaning a sharp or flat) are called enharmonic because they refer to the same actual note. This confused the hell out of me, because I didn't know which spelling to use when.

For the sake of consistency, 3rds, 4ths etc, are named according the actual order of the notes in the scale, for example:

CDEFGABC
12345678

This doesn't account for the fact that there is sharps and flats between most of these notes, but looking at the order of the letters it makes sense that a C major would be CEG (root,3rd,5th).

But take an E major chord, and you have E G#/Ab B. You'd give precedence to spelling it E G# B because the note is, in this chord, functioning as the 3rd.

Likewise in a scale. In the most basic C minor, you have C,D,D#/Eb,F,G,A,B. You'd choose to spell D#/Eb as Eb because in this scale the D functions as a major 2nd and the D#/Eb as a minor 3rd.

I really do apologise if this explanation is as awful as I suspect.

[JumpingJackFlash]

Following on from this part of Jumpingjack's thorough post, I just want to mention one thing, as it had me flummoxed for quite a while. A single accidental note (accidental meaning sharp or flat) is called enharmonic, because as mentioned above it can be called either the sharp of one note lower or the flat of one higher, e.g. A# and Bb. This confused the hell out of me, because I didn't know which to call it.

Yes, we say A# and Bb are enharmonically equivalent, but refering to just one sharp or flat (or indeed a natural), it's best just to call it an accidental.

Likewise in a scale. In the most basic C minor, you have C,D,Db/E#,F,G,A,B. You'd choose to spell Db/E# as E# because in this scale the D functions as a major 2nd and the Db as a minor 3rd.

Other way round; it would be D# or Eb, and you'd spell it as an Eb.

[JumpingJackFlash]

What's the difference between a minor and a major chor? Or a diminished one come to that?

I thought I had answered that with the following 2 paragraphs:

Major scales all have the pattern Tone, Tone, Semitone, Tone, Tone, Tone, Semitone.
Natural Minor scales all have the pattern: Tone, Semitone, Tone, Tone, Semitone, Tone, Tone. However, in the Harmonic Minor, which is more often used, the 7th note of the scale is raised one semitone.

Standard chords consists of the 1st ('root'), 3rd, and 5th notes of the scale. - So, in A major, you get A, C-sharp, E.
In A minor, you get A, C, E. - Notice the difference between them; the third of a major chord is a semitone higher than the minor one.

So, major chords have the root, the (major) 3rd which is 4 semitones above it, and the 5th, which is 3 semitones above the 3rd (or 7 semitones above the root).

Minor chords have the root, the (minor) 3rd which is 3 semitones above it, and the 5th (which is the same as the major chord).

Notice, it's only the 3rd that changes.

[WoJ]

i'd suggest buying one the 'popular music theory' grade books, they range from 1 - 5, then theres a '6, 7 + 8' book i think. These books tell you a lot about modal harmony, chord structure etc.

Or failing that, pay for a private jazz teacher.

[robenestobenz]

Jumping Jack: Yeah, that was what I meant (re. the Db/E# - the enharmonic stuff I just put very badly). Thanks, I've gone back and corrected it now - I should have read back what I wrote before posting considering how critical accuracy is when talking about these sorts of things.

[racemize]

As a different way to answer your triad question (major/minor):

Triads (in basic chords) are composed of thirds, where major third are 4 half steps, and minor thirds are 3 half steps.

A major triad is a major third + a minor third. A minor triad is a minor third + a major third. An augmented triad ("stretched") is a major third + a major third. A diminished triad ("reduced") is a minor third + a minor third.

For example a CMaj triad consits of C, E, G. The difference between C and E is a major third, and the difference between E and G is a minor third.


As to how to identify chords given a few notes, it comes down to math. While root and fifth can tell you something about the chord, it actually doesn't give you a whole lot of information. For example, if you knew that the chord had a C and a G in it, then you would not know whether it was a major or minor C chord. So, in some respects, the root and the third are more easily used to identify simple chords. When they get more complex, the possibilities increase quite a bit, and so it becomes a little harder to ascertain the color of the chord with a few notes (leading to some cases that are ambiguous).

[racemize]

I should also note that it is not always the case that a C# is the same as a Db. String players for instance will play the notes differently. Obviously, they are the same with discrete semitone instruments (e.g., modern piano, guitars, etc.) Also, notes will be played slightly differently given the context of the note. As I recall, to make a chord sound really good, a third of a chord tends to be played a little sharp and the fifth a little flat.