I was told once that many musicians use the circle of fifths like chemists use the periodic table...
At my beginners level, the only uses I see are to find out which keys have x amount of sharps or flats,progressions in fifths/fourths and a few other minor things...but I know there has to be more to it than that!...almost as if a huge chunk of music theory can be described using it or at least it may be practical for composition...
So common you theory nuts help me understand it's use in practice!
Practical uses of the circle of fifths
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- KVRian
- 1191 posts since 8 Jul, 2005 from NY, US
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- KVRian
- 1214 posts since 10 Aug, 2005
Many jazz chord standards are derived from ascending and descending the circle of fifths.
Anyways, I'm just getting started on all things theory so I'll let someone higher up the ladder come to the rescue.
Anyways, I'm just getting started on all things theory so I'll let someone higher up the ladder come to the rescue.
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- "The" Jazz
- 4614 posts since 18 Aug, 2004 from California, United States
Okay, I'm going to take you on a little journey. This is no doubt way more information than you asked for, but it'll give you a different perspective on the circle of fourths, and connect a few other topics as well.
There's something about the circle of fourths (note I use fourths, not fifths--fifths is sort of the classical way, but in Jazz we go around the circle in fourths) which makes progression by fourths similar to chromatic movement. Basically if you imagine a scale which goes up in fourths until it reaches the note you started on, that's the chromatic scale but all the notes in a different order, right? In this way, there are many similarities between going up (or down) chromatically and going up (or down) by fourths.
First let me introduce you to a way of thinking about intervals. The intervals possible (besides unison, which is similar to an octave) are:
m2, M2, m3, M3, P4, TT (tritone)
Any wider interval than that is merely an inversion of one of these smaller intervals.
If you go in any direction using minor 2nds, it takes 12 until you reach back home. With major 2nds it takes 6, with minor 3rds it takes 4, with major 3rds it takes 3, with perfect fourths it takes 12, and with the tritone it takes 2. Actually the tritone is special, since it's its own inversion, and there's always something that suggests that the tritone is related to the root in some manner. The concept of tritone substitution (I.E. substituting an F#7 for a C7 because they share the same 3rd and 7th) suggests this also.
In music theory, it's interesting to look at things' neighbors, and ways we can group things together. For example, we can call intervals' inversions neighbors of the interval. Flipping things upside down or putting things backwards make them the neighbor of the original. Things that are directly opposite each other are neighbors.
For example, if you reverse the order of the intervals in a scale you get a neighbor of the scale. If you flip mixolydian around, you get aeolian. If you reverse lydian, you get locrian. If you flip phrygian around you get ionian, and lastly but interestingly enough, dorian backwards is still dorian.
Chords that contain all the same intervals as another chord make them related somehow. For example, a major triad has all the same intervals as a minor triad. A dominant 7th chord has the same exact intervals as a half-diminished 7th chord. A sus4 chord has the same intervals as a sus2 chord. We may not understand it, but our ear tells us these chords are similar somehow, also.
So how do we apply this sort of knowledge to our own music? In any way we want, that's how! It might seem a very mathematical way of writing music, but I believe our ears can hear that way, too.
Try playing a short melody. Then play it backwards. Left brain aside, our ear recognizes something similar about them. Turn the melody upside down, and our ear still hears it being related to the original.
Anyway, just more musical toys to play with.
There's something about the circle of fourths (note I use fourths, not fifths--fifths is sort of the classical way, but in Jazz we go around the circle in fourths) which makes progression by fourths similar to chromatic movement. Basically if you imagine a scale which goes up in fourths until it reaches the note you started on, that's the chromatic scale but all the notes in a different order, right? In this way, there are many similarities between going up (or down) chromatically and going up (or down) by fourths.
First let me introduce you to a way of thinking about intervals. The intervals possible (besides unison, which is similar to an octave) are:
m2, M2, m3, M3, P4, TT (tritone)
Any wider interval than that is merely an inversion of one of these smaller intervals.
If you go in any direction using minor 2nds, it takes 12 until you reach back home. With major 2nds it takes 6, with minor 3rds it takes 4, with major 3rds it takes 3, with perfect fourths it takes 12, and with the tritone it takes 2. Actually the tritone is special, since it's its own inversion, and there's always something that suggests that the tritone is related to the root in some manner. The concept of tritone substitution (I.E. substituting an F#7 for a C7 because they share the same 3rd and 7th) suggests this also.
In music theory, it's interesting to look at things' neighbors, and ways we can group things together. For example, we can call intervals' inversions neighbors of the interval. Flipping things upside down or putting things backwards make them the neighbor of the original. Things that are directly opposite each other are neighbors.
For example, if you reverse the order of the intervals in a scale you get a neighbor of the scale. If you flip mixolydian around, you get aeolian. If you reverse lydian, you get locrian. If you flip phrygian around you get ionian, and lastly but interestingly enough, dorian backwards is still dorian.
Chords that contain all the same intervals as another chord make them related somehow. For example, a major triad has all the same intervals as a minor triad. A dominant 7th chord has the same exact intervals as a half-diminished 7th chord. A sus4 chord has the same intervals as a sus2 chord. We may not understand it, but our ear tells us these chords are similar somehow, also.
So how do we apply this sort of knowledge to our own music? In any way we want, that's how! It might seem a very mathematical way of writing music, but I believe our ears can hear that way, too.
Try playing a short melody. Then play it backwards. Left brain aside, our ear recognizes something similar about them. Turn the melody upside down, and our ear still hears it being related to the original.
Anyway, just more musical toys to play with.
Greg Schlaepfer
Orange Tree Samples
Ultra-realistic sample libraries for Kontakt
Orange Tree Samples
Ultra-realistic sample libraries for Kontakt
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- KVRAF
- 2217 posts since 15 Jul, 2003
do a google on
The 'Giant Steps' Progression and Cycle Diagrams
by Dan Adler
and a pdf will come up
print that out and study it very patiently over time
otherwise try this information packed link as well
http://www.guitarnoise.com/article.php?id=347
the gist of it is one can reach along the circle to backcycle to the destination or one can reach across the circle for tritone substitution
among other things
The 'Giant Steps' Progression and Cycle Diagrams
by Dan Adler
and a pdf will come up
print that out and study it very patiently over time
otherwise try this information packed link as well
http://www.guitarnoise.com/article.php?id=347
the gist of it is one can reach along the circle to backcycle to the destination or one can reach across the circle for tritone substitution
among other things
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- KVRAF
- 1975 posts since 4 Feb, 2005
In the circle of fifths, moving clockwise will create ascent (strong motion, toward the tonic) and counterclockwise will create descent (weak motion, away from the tonic)
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- "The" Jazz
- 4614 posts since 18 Aug, 2004 from California, United States
Which, mind you, is related to chromatic movement.Toxikator wrote:In the circle of fifths, moving clockwise will create ascent (strong motion, toward the tonic) and counterclockwise will create descent (weak motion, away from the tonic)
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- KVRAF
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
Progression of fifths is the most common root movement in tonal music. It is of MASSIVE significance, as it is where the ii-V-I comes from. You can start a progression how ever you like, but ultimately it will probably end in with fifth root movement in this manner.
TB
TB
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1191 posts since 8 Jul, 2005 from NY, US
Sorry, I'm kinda lost by this...I don't understand why any interval more than a tritone is just an inversion of a smaller interval. For example, how is an interval of 4 whole tones an inversion of something else? Also, what do you mean by F# and C7 share the same 3rd and 7th? Also, how do you turn a melody upside down?Gregjazz wrote:
First let me introduce you to a way of thinking about intervals. The intervals possible (besides unison, which is similar to an octave) are:
m2, M2, m3, M3, P4, TT (tritone)
Any wider interval than that is merely an inversion of one of these smaller intervals.
If you go in any direction using minor 2nds, it takes 12 until you reach back home. With major 2nds it takes 6, with minor 3rds it takes 4, with major 3rds it takes 3, with perfect fourths it takes 12, and with the tritone it takes 2. Actually the tritone is special, since it's its own inversion, and there's always something that suggests that the tritone is related to the root in some manner. The concept of tritone substitution (I.E. substituting an F#7 for a C7 because they share the same 3rd and 7th) suggests this also.
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- KVRAF
- 6519 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from UK
The distance from C to D is 2 semitones (Minor 2nd). The distance from D to C is 10 semitones (Minor 7th). You're still playing a C and D whichever way you look at it, so the intervals are said to be inversions.
The same applies to the other intervals. The tritone (C and F#) is a special case being 6 semitones up and 6 down.
The same applies to the other intervals. The tritone (C and F#) is a special case being 6 semitones up and 6 down.
Last edited by nuffink on Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- "The" Jazz
- 4614 posts since 18 Aug, 2004 from California, United States
A perfect 5th is just the inversion of a perfect 4th. A minor 6th is the inversion of a major 3rd. A major 6th is the inversion of a minor 3rd, a minor 7th is the inversion of a major 2nd, and a major 7th is the inversion of a minor 2nd.MadPsyance wrote: Sorry, I'm kinda lost by this...I don't understand why any interval more than a tritone is just an inversion of a smaller interval.
This is a way of considering intervals. I'm not saying that this is the correct way, since there is no correct way, this is just a possible way of looking at intervals which allows some interesting analysis.
F#7 = F#, A#, C#, E. The 3rd is an A#, and the 7th (dominant) is an E.MadPsyance wrote: Also, what do you mean by F# and C7 share the same 3rd and 7th? Also, how do you turn a melody upside down?
C7 = C, E, G, Bb. The 3rd is an E and the 7th (dominant) is a Bb.
Enharmonics aside, both chords share those same two notes, although they are different scale degrees.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1191 posts since 8 Jul, 2005 from NY, US
Ok, thanks guys I get it now. For some reason I wasn't thinking...ahh nevermind 
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JumpingJackFlash JumpingJackFlash https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=44005
- KVRian
- 1227 posts since 10 Oct, 2004
Typo here: C to D is a Major 2nd (not minor).nuffink wrote:The distance from C to D is 2 semitones (Minor 2nd).
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- KVRAF
- 6519 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from UK
Oh dear, that's a bad one. I'm not even gonna bother to change it. My shame shall remain public.JumpingJackFlash wrote:Typo here: C to D is a Major 2nd (not minor).nuffink wrote:The distance from C to D is 2 semitones (Minor 2nd).
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