KVR Audio

rachmiel · Post by **rachmiel** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:30 pm

does anyone use them? i do ... when i feel like dipping into the realm of discrete pitches. :-)

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:37 pm

Symmetric modes? never heard of such a thing. Occasioned to symmetric scales, but...

Also, I know of only three symmetric chords: The tritone, the augmented, and the dim7.

jee_pack · Post by **jee_pack** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:41 pm

do you mean, synthetic modes?

rachmiel · Post by **rachmiel** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:22 pm

> Symmetric modes? never heard of such a thing. Occasioned to symmetric scales, but...

scales, modes, i use the terms interchangeably. i mean symmetric interval patterns that repeat at the octave. or not ... i've done lots of composing in symmetric modes that repeat at non-octave intervals ... or that don't repeat at all. can be gorgeous.

> Also, I know of only three symmetric chords: The tritone, the augmented, and the dim7

you can build symmetric chords by taking the appropriate notes from symmetric modes. or you can just do it by ear at a keyboard mirroring intervals up from the lowest pitch to intervals down from the highest.

rachmiel · Post by **rachmiel** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:23 pm

> synthetic modes

what's that? non church modes? modes that repeat at non-octave intervals?

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:35 pm

Modes which are built from scale degrees of the harmonic minor rather than the natural one.

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:36 pm

I don't know if it counts as a scale if it doesn't repeat at the octave...?

jee_pack · Post by **jee_pack** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:55 pm

Toxikator wrote:Modes which are built from scale degrees of the harmonic minor rather than the natural one.

actually, theres are 7 other synthetic modes made from the melodic minor scale, jsut thought it was worth mentionning while your talking about the modes of the harmonic minor modes... I describe all of them in this thread (the long boring text), but hey if anyone is wondering what synthetic modes are, this should do it...

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 0&start=15

1. IONIAN
1.a Ionian #5 (HM3)
2. DORIAN
2.a Dorian #4 (HM4)
2.b Dorian #7 (MM1)
2.c Dorian b2 (MM2)
3. PHRYGIAN
3.a Phrygian #3 (HM5) aka Phrygian Dominant or Spanish Gypsy
4. LYDIAN
4.a Lydian #2 (HM6)
4.b Lydian #5 (MM3)
4.c Lydian b7 (MM4)
5. MIXOLYDIAN
5.a Mixolydian #1 (HM7)
5.b Mixolydian b6 (MM5)
6. AEOLIAN
6.a Aeolian #7 (HM1)
7. LOCRIAN
7.a Locrian #6 (HM2)
7.b Locrian #2 (MM6)
7.c Locrian b4 (MM7) aka Super Locrian

rachmiel · Post by **rachmiel** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:58 pm

thanks for the definition.

> don't know if it counts as a scale if it doesn't repeat at the octave

from my random house unabridged dictionary ...

scale: a succession of tones ascending or descending according to fixed intervals.

doesn't mention the octave requirement.

now that we're into semantics, what's the difference between a scale and a mode?

jee_pack · Post by **jee_pack** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:00 pm

rachmiel wrote:does anyone use them? i do ... when i feel like dipping into the realm of discrete pitches.

now that I think I understand, no, actually I don't use them, I actually try to avoid the tritone in all my progressions, doesn't fit my style... but I like other types of 'special chords' used as progression tools... but the tritone or anything coming from that is just too dissonant for my kind of melodies, Some people do though, I remember reading on wikipedia or something that you can make good use of this chord if you know how to pull it off, I never checked it out, but remember that song from jimmy hendrix: purple haze... that's a crazy song that is contructed on the tritone (according to that wikipedia thing).... I guess you just gotta know how to pull it how, and you mustn't be surprise when you realise it sounds like an weird tone... or a 'purple haze' haha.

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:04 pm

rachmiel wrote:now that we're into semantics, what's the difference between a scale and a mode?

Disregarding the classical history of "Modes" and "scales"...

A "scale" is a set of pitches with degrees or relationships to a "root".

A "mode" is the same set of pitches, only held to a specific degree.

For example:

Scale: CMajor
Tonic Mode: CMajor
Subdominant Mode: FLydian

Scale: C,Db,F,G,Ab (common Japanese ethnic scale)
3rd degree Mode: F,G,Ab,C,Db

jee_pack · Post by **jee_pack** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:10 pm

rachmiel wrote:thanks for the definition.

> don't know if it counts as a scale if it doesn't repeat at the octave

from my random house unabridged dictionary ...

scale: a succession of tones ascending or descending according to fixed intervals.

doesn't mention the octave requirement.

now that we're into semantics, what's the difference between a scale and a mode?

this is basic, and if you go read about it in the thread I posted in the reply just before you posted it, you should figure out that a scale having 7 notes, has 7 modes, each mode starting from the 1st, 2nd, 3rd note of that scale. for example: in a C major KEY (and I emphasize the work KEY cuse it only means to use the key signature of X scale). Play from D to D and you are playing the Dorian scale (2nd mode of the major scale)... and as you will see in the description of 21 modes/synthetic modes in this thread (2nd page), the difference is the intervals from tonic to tonic are all different... and each mode is suppose to bring out certain types of emotions depending on the kind of intervals they use

rachmiel · Post by **rachmiel** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:56 pm

> avoid the tritone

come on give it a try: embrace the dark side ... ;-)

tritones don't need to be part of a symmetric mode or chord. for example, this is a symmetric chord:

C F G C

rachmiel · Post by **rachmiel** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:58 pm

> A "scale" is a set of pitches with degrees or relationships to a "root".

> A "mode" is the same set of pitches, only held to a specific degree

aha!

but aren't they, in essence, the same species of structure:

a repeating pattern of intervals with a root?

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:02 am

Not really...

There are two ways to think about modes and scales.

1) Modes and modality consists of the 8 church modes, while Tonality consists of the major and harmonic minor scales

2) (the way I'm discussing), a scale is a defined set of pitches with a "root", upon which melodies (and theoretically also harmonies) are based. Modes are like versions of this scale which are achieved by taking its pitches and reorganizing them around certain scale degrees.

C Major is the scale CDEFGACBC

There are 8 modes of this scale, each one created by playing it's notes from a specific starting point.

The mode of the first scale degree is always identical to the scale itself.

symmetric modes and chords