A request: Intro to bassline "theory"

[AllenPOPO]

Hello theory people!!! Im here today to try and shed some light on some aspects of (beginner) theory concepts that i have...i've come along quite nicely forming chords and making chord progressions.....but i have been struggling to make my basslines which accompany the chords more "interesting"...I have touched on such topics as walking basslines but im not really sure how they work, and a lot of times i just end up using the root notes in the bass without much idea as to how to lead into other chords or do things in the bass to make the chord progression sound more cool or interesting...

hoping to shine some light on:


--How different bass notes affect chords

-- how to find a good 'theoretical' starting point for bass lines given a predetermined chord or progression

--different styles of basslines and which styles or moods they are best used for

-- and one im not really sure of: how to voice chords (piano) so that they dont take up the bass range? or should i say compete with the bass that you do end up using?




if anyone can help me with some of those, or point me to some info on the i would greatly appreciate it this is an awesome forum, and suprisingly insightful...thanks for help in advance



Allen

[Toxikator]

Basslines can be considered the "root" of any chord they accompany. Low bass synths can just double the harmony bass, but it's often cooler to consider the bassline a secondary melody; descents by step and ascents by leap are cool, walking is cool, repetition is cool... essentially, it depends on style. What sort of music you making?

[JumpingJackFlash]

Hello theory people!!! Im here today to try and shed some light on some aspects of (beginner) theory concepts that i have...i've come along quite nicely forming chords and making chord progressions.....but i have been struggling to make my basslines which accompany the chords more "interesting"...I have touched on such topics as walking basslines but im not really sure how they work, and a lot of times i just end up using the root notes in the bass without much idea as to how to lead into other chords or do things in the bass to make the chord progression sound more cool or interesting...

hoping to shine some light on:


--How different bass notes affect chords

-- how to find a good 'theoretical' starting point for bass lines given a predetermined chord or progression

--different styles of basslines and which styles or moods they are best used for

-- and one im not really sure of: how to voice chords (piano) so that they dont take up the bass range? or should i say compete with the bass that you do end up using?




if anyone can help me with some of those, or point me to some info on the i would greatly appreciate it this is an awesome forum, and suprisingly insightful...thanks for help in advance



Allen

I'll see if I have time to write something tomorrow!

Your post seems to cover harmony (especially inversions), voice-leading, and arranging. As with a lot of things, it will depend greatly on the style you want to write in.

[JumpingJackFlash]

Basslines can be considered the "root" of any chord they accompany.

This could lead to a lot of confusion; don't forget with inversions (and slash chords) the root will not be in the bass.

[AllenPOPO]

Basslines can be considered the "root" of any chord they accompany. Low bass synths can just double the harmony bass, but it's often cooler to consider the bassline a secondary melody; descents by step and ascents by leap are cool, walking is cool, repetition is cool... essentially, it depends on style. What sort of music you making?

thanks for the quick reply The music i am interested in making is...probably a mix between indie pop/ alt rock (think beatles, beach boys et al) and mixing it with some contemporary styles, a little soul and urban influence...


I typically have done hip hop, but i am starting a cooler project that incorporates a full band...i have musicians lined up but i want to write the songs myself as i will be the one singing them....i always get to the chord progression and then i cant seem to get the bass to sound good ever


but perhaps some tips on bass for pop/alt rock songs some songs i have in mind:




The Beach Boys "I just wasnt made for these times"

The Beatles "Strawberry Fields Forever"


Marvin Gaye "Whats going on"



those songs pretty much encapsulate what im trying to cover with the music
anything you can help me with i would appreciate


Allen

[Toxikator]

Basslines can be considered the "root" of any chord they accompany.

This could lead to a lot of confusion; don't forget with inversions (and slash chords) the root will not be in the bass.

Why "root" is quoted, but you're right, it's highly confusing. What I was trying to suggest was that the bass can be viewed as the lowest note of the harmony even if it's being played by a different instrument.

[AllenPOPO]

Hello theory people!!! Im here today to try and shed some light on some aspects of (beginner) theory concepts that i have...i've come along quite nicely forming chords and making chord progressions.....but i have been struggling to make my basslines which accompany the chords more "interesting"...I have touched on such topics as walking basslines but im not really sure how they work, and a lot of times i just end up using the root notes in the bass without much idea as to how to lead into other chords or do things in the bass to make the chord progression sound more cool or interesting...

hoping to shine some light on:


--How different bass notes affect chords

-- how to find a good 'theoretical' starting point for bass lines given a predetermined chord or progression

--different styles of basslines and which styles or moods they are best used for

-- and one im not really sure of: how to voice chords (piano) so that they dont take up the bass range? or should i say compete with the bass that you do end up using?




if anyone can help me with some of those, or point me to some info on the i would greatly appreciate it this is an awesome forum, and suprisingly insightful...thanks for help in advance



Allen

I'll see if I have time to write something tomorrow!

Your post seems to cover harmony (especially inversions), voice-leading, and arranging. As with a lot of things, it will depend greatly on the style you want to write in.

would appreciate any insight....my post above this goes nto detail the style of the music im tryingto make, if that helps. im at the point where i believe anything can help as long as its not what im doing now

[jens]

I have touched on such topics as walking basslines but im not really sure how they work

usually you'd walk along the chord that is currently played but it might be a good idea to leave out the notes which don't belong to the key the chord progression is in - but it mght also be a good idea to put them in deliberately - this really depends on the track and/or your taste - and if the chord progression goes over one or more key-changes then the walking-bass can make it glue

--How different bass notes affect chords

they affect them depending on their own difference...

-- how to find a good 'theoretical' starting point for bass lines given a predetermined chord or progression

again?

--different styles of basslines and which styles or moods they are best used for

yes, absolutely

-- and one im not really sure of: how to voice chords (piano) so that they dont take up the bass range? or should i say compete with the bass that you do end up using?

really, mate, your questions are kind of tough to answer because you can't generalize that stuff - it all depends on so many variables - sometimes I just leave the left hand away (or rather mute the notes afterwards), sometimes I transpose the whole pattern one octave up, sometimes I equalize the piano, sometimes I'd rather equalize the bass-guitar/bass-synth - this all depends on the track and your taste - but in any case I don't think it's usually a good idea to really play basslines with the left hand if it ain't solo-piano...

[AllenPOPO]

I have touched on such topics as walking basslines but im not really sure how they work

usually you'd walk along the chord that is currently played but it might be a good idea to leave out the notes which don't belong to the key the chord progression is in - but it mght also be a good idea to put them in deliberately - this really depends on the track and/or your taste - and if the chord progression goes over one or more key-changes then the walking-bass can make it glue

--How different bass notes affect chords

they affect them depending on their own difference...

-- how to find a good 'theoretical' starting point for bass lines given a predetermined chord or progression

again?

--different styles of basslines and which styles or moods they are best used for

yes, absolutely

-- and one im not really sure of: how to voice chords (piano) so that they dont take up the bass range? or should i say compete with the bass that you do end up using?

really, mate, your questions are kind of tough to answer because you can't generalize that stuff - it all depends on so many variables - sometimes I just leave the left hand away (or rather mute the notes afterwards), sometimes I transpose the whole pattern one octave up, sometimes I equalize the piano, sometimes I'd rather equalize the bass-guitar/bass-synth - this all depends on the track and your taste - but in any case I don't think it's usually a good idea to really play basslines with the left hand if it ain't solo-piano...

well.....im sorry that i "over-generalized" but...wtf, i thought i made it clear that i didnt/dont "know any better"....i dont know theory like that, i dont play the piano well, i dont ply the bass well, but i just want some tips...i made that post to the best of my knowledge....i can specify in places that can




Im try again here:

--What techniques are used to make basslines sound more interesting using thory of what chord you are using... ie if you play C major chord which notes on the bass make it sound how? does a A note in the bass give it tension, does the G note make it want to go to a certain chord???

--How to gel one bar of bass with the next is probably my biggest issue. are there "methods" to doing these types of things? is this like voice leading?


--are there any tried and true methods for the style (which by the way i outlined as basically pop/alt rock)...like ie is there a way to do bass that will pretty much work with this style and then go back and refine later?




im also more than willing to do my own research if there is material available...i mean im NOT an expert like you may be jens. when i talk to someone who is asking me to compuwhore for them (that is fix their computer because i know more about computers than them) i tend to scoff at them the same way you (mildly) scoffed at me....they describe the problems they have but are often vague, to general and not helpful enough...




...i'll have to be nicer when i compuwhore now



thanks for replying , nonetheless...hey look at it like this: i need SOMETHING to do until next XT2 beta comes out, right?

[jens]

--What techniques are used to make basslines sound more interesting using thory of what chord you are using... ie if you play C major chord which notes on the bass make it sound how? does a A note in the bass give it tension, does the G note make it want to go to a certain chord???

--How to gel one bar of bass with the next is probably my biggest issue. are there "methods" to doing these types of things? is this like voice leading?

yes, it's like voice leading - but again it all depends on your taste and the material... er...


let me say it like this:

usually I'd play the more notes/melody lines the softer/balladish the song is...

...no....



if the mix is kind of busy the you do not want to clutter it up with a complex bass-line


...except maybe....




...except the bass is playing a riff instead of following the chords - or perhaps it is playing a riff but partially following the chords nontheless?


But anyway: the faster it is, the more hectic it will appear if you play a lot of different notes with the bass....


er... usually...


maybe.

[jens]

well, I give it another try:

say there's a four bar long chorrd progression with a new chord on each new bar - if I decide to follow the chords with the bassline, then usually I'd follow the rhythm rather closely on the first three bars while playing the root-note but would probably allow myself to play a few (two or three) notes besides the root-key between the second and the third bar - and then on the fourth bar (or maybe only on the eight bar i.e. on every second round) I'd maybe break out of the rhythmic pattern and play something like a mini-solo on the second half of the bar, perhaps even something syncopatic - probably I'd program the beat to follow this break but then again maybe I wouldn't...

[AllenPOPO]

Im getting your picture here...i know there are not going to be "hard and fast rules"--I know its going to be very subjective--what im looking for is what has worked for others....thanks for those tips...what i WILL do though, is post an example sometime tomorrow hopefully of a progression i came up with, and the bass...so people can tell me what i already know--i suck but then maybe people can help me find the issues im not getting or lookin over....your right damnit i AM too vague :p

[jens]

well fwiw, I just listened to a mp3 from you called 'the funk' and I think I know what might be your problem - the bassline is absolutely o.k. as it is but it is very er... unobstrusive - if you want it to come up from below and sing with the song instead of slavishly following the beat then you need to at least partially break out of it - take 'the funk' as an example: you can't make the bassline more interesting without playing more notes within the same time-interval...

so I think you problem is rather a rhythmical one than a harmonic one...

[AllenPOPO]

well fwiw, I just listened to a mp3 from you called 'the funk' and I think I know what might be your problem - the bassline is absolutely o.k. as it is but it is very er... unobstrusive - if you want it to come up from below and sing with the song instead of slavishly following the beat then you need to at least partially break out of it - take 'the funk' as an example: you can't make the bassline more interesting without playing more notes within the same time-interval...

so I think you problem is rather a rhythmical one than a harmonic one...

....noted.


thanks this sparks the idea that i need to prepare audio examples with my stuff to help show what my problems are...truly the universal language






edit: <afterthought> i believe 'the funk' is NOT an mp3 i did...i think Jakob did it from that song i made for energyXT....the guitar you played over that track still rawks...but that wasnt my track named the funk. my track was just the 'placeholder' in that song...never used in the end...which i still havent finished because im in linux playing around </afterthought>


i'll definitely post an example soon

[Rajiv]

Allen -- I'm not strong at music theory, so forgive me if I'm suggesting something you've already done. Maybe you should work backwards. Take a couple of songs that you like, learn (and probably transcribe) the bassline, then try to get an understanding of the theory behind the progressions so you can repeat it confidently in different songs. I use GuitarPro 5 for this (mostly with guitar solos, but it works for bass, too).

Another idea is to use Band in a Box, type in the chords of your songs and select a style. BIAB will create a bassline for the song. You probably won't want to use the bassline verbatim, but it will probably give you some ideas. Try playing with the melodist and soloist features on the bass and see if it comes up with anything unexpected. Then, learn the theory behind the notes.

IMO, really good bassists know how to use their instruments to add rhythm, not just melody to the song (sort of like what jens is saying). I find this to be the greatest challenge of playing bass as a non-bassist. I know when I hear somebody else do something cool rhythmically, but I can't hear it in my own head. As a result, I can't play it. I'm not sure how else to overcome this other than bass lessons or transcription. (or distortion)

Hope these thoughts help.