KVR Audio

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:24 am

During the 19th century, thematic transformation became a major force in determining the form of pieces. Composers such as Liszt and Wagner would create large scale works from just a handful of themes which they'd manipulate to for almost a kind of narrative. I dont know if this is true, but I heard it said that Liszt was inspired (in this area) by Chopin's ballades, and took it to the next level and beyond in his own compositions. I think his B minor sonata is a fine example.

Anyway, Wagner went on to pioneer the use of this technique in his operas, refering to it as leitmotif. Modern filmscores use this technique HEAVILY. This is where certain characters, places etc have thematic material associated with them. The good guy has his theme, the bad guy has his theme, the love interest has a theme, etc. And the music is manipulation to fit the circumstance.

How are themes transformed?

Key, harmonization, rhythm, arrangement, dynamics amongst other things.

Lets take a simple example.

Say your want something bright and happy. You might have theme in a major key, with the melody in the treble, a brisk allegro tempo.

Now say you want it to be dark and forboding. You drop the melody down into the tenor or even bass, you slow the tempo, you put it into a minor key, perhaps introduce great dissonance into the harmonization.

Imo, this is all really important stuff that tends to get neglected a little on this particular forum. There is alot of discussion about harmony, but very little about form, thematic organization and tranformation.

I think it would be cool if we could get a discussion going about this. We could post examples from classical and contempary literature to demonstrate points. Im sure it would be very enlightening, especially as many people here seem interest in modern filmscore and the like.

TB

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:51 am

HEre's an example from the Liszt sonata. The same theme is presented five times, each with very different 'moods'. I think that you can learn so much from this kind of stuff.

http://download.yousendit.com/7DE2FF9F4E433860

There's also some really insteresting harmonies. Check out the nasty dissonant pedal in the second example!

I have millions of filmscores on another harddrive, but its knackered unfortunately. Nice one Lacie

TB

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:12 am

Ok, here's a more contempary example of leitmotif, from Elliot Goldenthal's Alien 3 score.

Here he uses a scary, Penderecki style texture when the Alien is in present. The first time is when the Alien is born, and the texture is mild in intensity. The next time when the Alien is fully grown and very intimidating, the texture is more intense.

http://download.yousendit.com/47453196041AA8CB

While there is no really transformation here, its a great example of how modern orchestrational and sound design techniques might be used to represent characters in a movie score.

A great resource for leitmotif that I noticed last year is the old Disney films. I was watching 'Lady and the Tramp' (for reasons unknown

), and I began to notice that literally the entire score is made up from leitmotif style themes. Its really an education!

TB

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:24 am

One film example you might want to look at is Once Upon a Time in the West, specifically the first scene, when Bronson turns up ('Harmonica Man theme'), Henry Fonda's first scene ('Frank's theme) and then the gunfight between the two which combines both themes into a climactic single piece...

gilgamash · Post by **gilgamash** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:53 pm

Greetings,
this is a large topic. Having studied (contemporary) composition and composing since my 10th year of existence I would start decomposing themes and try varying those or look into how composers have done this for centuries. In today's composition 'transformation' goes way farther: Using modern playing techniques, electronic machines, etc. etc. etc.

A good way to start is e.g. looking at variations: I suggest 'Brahms, Johannes: Schumann-Variationen op. 9', (Variations on a theme of Clara Schumann) where a main theme of Clara Schumann is varied in an incredible amount of ways, even considering fugue-like.

Mozart's 'Sonata No. 11 A-Major KV 331 (300i)' offers a 1st movement with 6 variations which might be of help, too.

If you are specifically focussing on films music, 'Hellraisers' (Part I) music can be recommended, too. Nice instrumentation here, too.

Greetings,
gilgamash

BertKoor · Post by **BertKoor** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:02 pm

Great anecdote on lack of "form" :

Around 1902 or 1903, Satie showed Debussy some of his latest work and asked for his opinion. Debussy replied:

Satie, you never had greater admirers than Ravel and myself; many of your early works had a great influence on our writing. Your Prelude de La porte héroïque du ciel was to us a revelation, so original, so different from that Wagnerian atmosphere which has surrounded us in late years. I liked your Gymnopedies so much that I orchestrated two of them. You have some kind of genius, or you have genius, period. Now, as a true friend may I warn you that from time to time there is in your art a certain lack of form.

This seems an ironic critique from a composer who cared so little for form himself, but undaunted, Satie responded with a new set of pieces for piano, four hands, with the rubric 3 Pieces in the Form of a Pear; this was characteristic of his wit. When he showed them to Debussy, the latter asked why he had titled them this way. Satie replied that he had done this so that Debussy could no longer criticize them for a lack of form. These pieces were written in 1903; so, the conversation must have taken place around that time, but no later.

The pun was also directed to the posture of Debussy...

Toxikator · Post by **Toxikator** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:03 pm

If you listen you can actually hear it extensively in the Simpsons, which is pretty cool, too. Listening to the music that plays a lot of it is based thematically on the opening song, but is manipulated in tempo or mode to suit the mood.

Of course, in any discussion of character themes it's also worth mentioning the Tristan Chord...

For those curious about how these techniques affect 'standalone' music, BTW (as in music that is meant for listening, rather than for function such as in a score) I refer to you Dream Theater, who make heavy use of "musical quotations", where themes from earlier in the record and from earlier albums are returned to. In fact, across all of their albums I think is a sort of "rock opera" about the 12-step program, and when a song doubles as an element of this macro-piece you can usually identify the common themes.

JumpingJackFlash · Post by **JumpingJackFlash** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:06 pm

tee boy wrote:I think it would be cool if we could get a discussion going about this. We could post examples from classical and contempary literature to demonstrate points. Im sure it would be very enlightening, especially as many people here seem interest in modern filmscore and the like.

Star Wars is an obvious example that everyone knows; Leia has a theme, Darth Vader has a theme, Yoda has a (particularly good) theme, - and so on. They mostly feature in The Empire Strikes Back, and are referred to in all the 3 prequel films. (Interesting aside: would Star Wars have been anywhere near as popular if it had a Forbidden Planet-type score? - I seriously doubt it).

Other films scored by the amazing John Williams are also relevant; Raiders of the Lost Arc, Jurassic Park, ET, and Superman are also of note.

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:56 pm

Absolutely. The leitmotif idea is used liberally in filmscore. Im not sure you could find a modern orchestral score that doesnt incorportate it in some way (ok, you probably could, but it is that widespread!).

Since I got into this, I began to think differently about music. Before I would work on figuration, orchestration etc, all these things when actually first composing.

But now I see that this is limiting. Now I like to come up with an idea, and then think of all the different ways that I might use that idea. In some ways, this is a little like Bach. He could look at a canon and know immediately the contrapunctal possibilities. Hence why he was such a master of fugue.

That is dealing more with motives. Im thinking in the more modern sense, as pioneered by Liszt and Wagner. The composition of themes that are flexible and can be used to form narrative.

And the coolest thing about this is that you can practice it on exsisting themes! You dont even need to compose your own. In this respect, I guess its very much like sampling.

TB

Km7 · Post by **Km7** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:00 pm

There are different ways to approach composing - some people begin with plain melody, others with harmony, rhythm, orchestration or form. But I think that if one starts with form, one's work would be easier and better structured, because one would have set up the strategical points in the composition. And since music is recognized because it is made of logical structures and patterns, in my opinion, the motive is very important part, the smallest ingredient, everything begins with the motive and its manipulation to create good, logical lines and coherent composition.

JumpingJackFlash · Post by **JumpingJackFlash** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:09 pm

Varadin wrote:There are different ways to approach composing - some people begin with plain melody, others with harmony, rhythm, orchestration or form. But I think that if one starts with form, one's work would be easier and better structured, because one would have set up the strategical points in the composition. And since music is recognized because it is made of logical structures and patterns, in my opinion, the motive is very important part, the smallest ingredient, everything begins with the motive and its manipulation to create good, logical lines and coherent composition.

They are all interrelated though. For example you can have harmonic motives, or purely rhythmic motives as well as just pitch.

Also form and harmony are very closely related. - The structure of most classical forms revolve around the idea of a tonic, going away from the tonic (usually to dominant or relative major), and often back to the tonic again. - The move away from the tonic often coincides with the introduction of new material, and the return of the tonic key usually coincides with a return to the ideas or motives that were written originally, thus unifying the piece perfectly.

(There are other ways to approach form as well of course, for example the use of proportional relationships that were insanely popular in medieval music, including such concepts as the Golden Section etc.).

VicDiesel · Post by **VicDiesel** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:19 pm

tee boy wrote:Absolutely. The leitmotif idea is used liberally in filmscore.
[...] But now I see that this is limiting. Now I like to come up with an idea, and then think of all the different ways that I might use that idea.

Also not unheard of in film scores. Check out the excellent film noir "Laura". The film music can even be got on CD as the "Laura Suite". Great set of variations on the song Laura.

Victor.

JumpingJackFlash · Post by **JumpingJackFlash** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:25 pm

VicDiesel wrote:
tee boy wrote:Absolutely. The leitmotif idea is used liberally in filmscore.
[...] But now I see that this is limiting. Now I like to come up with an idea, and then think of all the different ways that I might use that idea.
Also not unheard of in film scores. Check out the excellent film noir "Laura". The film music can even be got on CD as the "Laura Suite". Great set of variations on the song Laura.

Victor.

Interesting note; 'Laura' was the first film where the soundtrack took on a life outside of the film. - In fact, some people say the soundtrack is the main reason the film became so famous. The film combines both diegetic and non-diegetic music very cleverly.

VicDiesel · Post by **VicDiesel** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:12 pm

JumpingJackFlash wrote:Interesting note; 'Laura' was the first film where the soundtrack took on a life outside of the film. - In fact, some people say the soundtrack is the main reason the film became so famous.

Hm...... It's a pretty good film by itself, I'd say. But yeah, it's an exemplary soundtrack.

Ok, so I had to look up the term "diegetic". I can think of some examples of it, but don't see how it applies to Laura. Care to explicate?

Victor.

JumpingJackFlash · Post by **JumpingJackFlash** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:36 pm

VicDiesel wrote:
JumpingJackFlash wrote:Interesting note; 'Laura' was the first film where the soundtrack took on a life outside of the film. - In fact, some people say the soundtrack is the main reason the film became so famous.
Hm...... It's a pretty good film by itself, I'd say. But yeah, it's an exemplary soundtrack.

Ok, so I had to look up the term "diegetic". I can think of some examples of it, but don't see how it applies to Laura. Care to explicate?

Victor.

Well, I must admit I haven't seen it in a while, but I remember one scene where they are having a party or something and the record player in the back starts playing, but then this music subtly becomes part of the scene, even when the record player is absent.

If memory serves, I believe lyrics were written later and performed by Nat King Cole (and later by others).

I believe the next film where the music had life outside of the film was High Noon (4/5 years later?)

Thematic Transformation