KVR Audio

TBlizz · Post by **TBlizz** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:53 pm

I've been thinking about replacing the EZ Drummer MIDI hi-hat patterns by real cymbals to fairly easy create a more live feel.

Searching for the definite REX-library containing all the acoustic hi-hat patterns I would need, the results were disappointing

In the old days sample CD's like AMG Neil Conti's Funky Drums from Hell (1992), Sampleheads Peter Erskine Living Drums! (1994) and Big Fish Audio Bruce Gary's Drum Vocabulary Vol. 1 (1995) started to include some solo hi-hat patterns, almost as an afterthought.

In 1997 Pocketfuel RADS Volume 1: Acoustic Drum Construction Kit made a very original library containing hundreds of 2 beat stereo kick/snare loops accompanied by dozens of separate ride-cymbals and hi-hat loops. Unfortunately, all the short loops were done in 89 BPM!

That same year a Swedish company called Sounds Good AB released Popped Vol. 1 and for the first time 2 to 4 dedicated hi-hat patterns were included in tempos from 80 to 150 BPM (in increments of 10) in Wav-format.

10 years later, and since the introduction of Spectrasonics Stylus RMX, the acoustic hi-hat patterns are still hard to find.

Stylus RMX does include a section called Groove Elements containing some hi-hat patterns, but just as Sonic Reality R.A.W. Rex Edition, these are mostly electronic.
Drums on Demand Volume 3: Upbeat & Aggressive includes "Loop Layers" containing a few acoustic hi-hat loops, but it is nowhere near a definite library.

I still have to check out BETA MONKEY Drum Werks V, but if anybody knows of any other library please let me know!

Vonbrucken · Post by **Vonbrucken** » Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:14 pm

you could try amvst loops (rex format)
http://www.amvst.com/index.php?name=Content&cid=2
just test the rythms loops
also from equinox
http://equinoxsounds.tradebit.com/files.php/6011
Free No Kick Dance Drum Loops Pack(REX2)
hope this helps

jeffb01 · Post by **jeffb01** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:44 pm

One of the stylus sage xpanders, i think it's 'liquid grooves' (though it may be 'burning grooves') has great acoustic hi hat groove elements, though it is only for stylus (not REX).

equipped stuff is good for giving you seperate groove element and has tons of hi hats (though it depends on your genre and I'm not even 100% sure how much of it is acoustic):

http://www.bigfishaudio.com/4DCGI/detail.html?1268

I'll look to see if I have anything else when I get home.

Reverend Rhythm · Post by **Reverend Rhythm** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:10 pm

I wonder if it would be worth emailing your idea to esoundz. To me, it sounds like something that could work for dowloadable packs.

TBlizz · Post by **TBlizz** » Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:03 pm

Thank you for all the suggestions.

The Big Fish Audio Equipped Bundle is a bit expensive at $400 and judging from the audio demos most of the hi-hats are electronic.

Spectrasonics Burning Grooves is a golden tip though; it has a lots of acoustic hi-hat patterns in 8th of 16th notes: Brite Pop, China, Chunky, Small, Toy & Wet. However…they are all at 100 BPM. Coming from Spectrasonics this is not so much a problem, since they have developed a Recycle trick which makes loops sound good on slower tempos, but this process seems to make the sounds a little more electronic as well.

If any Sample library developer is reading... this would be my wish list:
1. Stereo Hi-hat patterns in REX2 format to be used in conjunction with Toontrack Ezdrummer
2. Hi-hat closed, half open & open.
3. Patterns of 4 to 8 bars long to create more of a live feel
4. No showcase for drummers; simple 8th and 16th note patterns with sensible variations (open hi-hat at the end for example)
5. Different sounds: Hi-hat Hi-Fi, Hi-hat Vintage, Hi-hat Dry, Hi-hat Roomy etcetera

Keep the suggestions coming!

jeffb01 · Post by **jeffb01** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:21 am

We have a lot of the same stuff (RAW and Drums on Demand 3) - funny

I know you listed R.A.W. as being mostly electronic, but there are 3 folders (around 150 loops) of acoustic hi hats there.

The equpped stuff can be bought individually (not in bundle), but it's still expensive at around $160 (and they may even be electronic though they sound good to me).

Keep us posted because I almost always buy sound libraries that have separated 'groove elements'

TBlizz · Post by **TBlizz** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:58 am

jeffb01 wrote:I know you listed R.A.W. as being mostly electronic, but there are 3 folders (around 150 loops) of acoustic hi hats there.

When I look in the Folder 05 Groove Elements, I see the following folders:
1. Electronic Hi Hats 1
2. Electronic Hi Hats 2
3. Mixed Hi Hats (also with lots of electronic sounds)

Have I missed any other folders that have acoustic Hi Hat patterns? Please let me know!

For now I've ordered:
BETA MONKEY Drum Werks V
Artist Complete (50% off at Best Service) which should have some acoustic patterns at 120 BPM.

If you're looking for separated "groove elements", there is an obscure product called: PMI Audio Groove Doctors Music Production Sets.

I cannot recommend it though. It's not in REX format and it sounds very clinical. The library is pretty big, but very hard to navigate and it uses only short 1 bar loops. The separate Hi-hat patterns are peaking at minus 21 dBFS and therefore have lots of hiss when you turn it up! Sort of a Pocketfuel RADS with more tempos (108, 120, 130, 140 I believe), but with bad labeling and bad sounds.

Rusty Shackleford · Post by **Rusty Shackleford** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:56 am

This is a broad generalization, but *any* loop will sound electronic if your ear doesn't discern any changes(of timing, dynamics). Try humanizing, letting velocity pitch up your hats a few cents or any similar techniques. XLN Audio have their addictive drums plugin which has a free unlimited demo version which includes hihat sounds, and maybe this plugin can help get you some acoustic sounding hats?

Hope this helps..

TBlizz · Post by **TBlizz** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:00 am

I'm not a drummer, but one trick to make electronic drums sound more real is to use real cymbals. In drum replacement (quite common in modern productions) the usual suspects are kick, snare & toms.

When using 4 to 8 bar loop acoustic hi-hat patterns in REX2 format you could make easily make a groove template from that pattern and apply it to the Kick & Snare. Or even use DNA Groove Templates from Numerical Sound and apply it to all tracks.
http://www.numericalsound.com/en-us/dept_3.html

When solo-ed you can hear the inconsistencies, but when played together is all gels. Especially if you use that same Groove Template on a MIDI Bass track.

I tried the Addictive Drums demo, but apart from the price of €225, I really didn't like the (Sonor) Snare they used. Also the hi-hats seemed a bit hard, when I'm looking for nuance.

Thanks!

jeffb01 · Post by **jeffb01** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:34 am

TBlizz wrote:
jeffb01 wrote:I know you listed R.A.W. as being mostly electronic, but there are 3 folders (around 150 loops) of acoustic hi hats there.
When I look in the Folder 05 Groove Elements, I see the following folders:
1. Electronic Hi Hats 1
2. Electronic Hi Hats 2
3. Mixed Hi Hats (also with lots of electronic sounds)

Have I missed any other folders that have acoustic Hi Hat patterns? Please let me know!

Sorry it took so long to get back. My RAW (rex edition) has a total of 106 folders and includes:

05GE Acoutic Hi Hats 1
05GE Acoutic Hi Hats 2
05GE Acoutic Hi Hats 3
05GE Electronic Hi Hats 1, etc.

Make sure you have 106 folders, if not (and you bought the rex edition), contact them, they have great customer service. Also look at the dvd as a list so you don't miss it.

TBlizz · Post by **TBlizz** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:22 am

Thank you Jeff, you're a lifesaver! For some odd reason I failed to convert those exact 3 folders with SAGE. Strange.

Oh well, not much labeling in the R.A.W. Rex Edition but very usable stuff at 120 & 140 BPM.

Even with Spectrasonics Burning Grooves (100 BPM) & R.A.W. Rex Edition (mostly 120 & 140 BPM) there is still room for a definite acoustic hi-hat library in REX2 format. There must a market for a tool which can improve the sound of EZdrummer with no less than 33,3%

jeffb01 · Post by **jeffb01** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:40 pm

You should email 'drums on demand' with your ideas. I mean their name is '...on demand'. If they made the sample library you're talking about, I would buy it.

TBlizz · Post by **TBlizz** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:30 pm

Today I received Beta Monkey Drumwerks V in REX format and there are only 8 Hi-hat patterns at 90 BPM… together with snare hits! Too bad.

The "Simple Patterns" folders at 90, 120 & 150 BPM are interesting though and tomorrow I will try to double these with the patterns (minus the hi-hat) in EZdrummer using Groove Quantize.

Also I'll post on the Drums on Demand forum to see if there is any interest in this. They seem to be running out of ideas with one of the latest volumes called "More 4/4"

TBlizz · Post by **TBlizz** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:37 pm

Today I received Best Service Artist Complete, so here's a quick update.

Artist Complete basically consists of Artist Drums (drum samples) & Artist Grooves (loops), the latter using the old Intakt Player from Native Instruments. In the Grooves section four world-class drummers (Simon Phillips, Mel Gaynor, Kenny Aronoff & Dennis Chambers) play in tempos from 80 to 160 BPM in 10 BPM increments.

In these groups there are usually 3 hi-hat loops and 2 ride loops, which adds up to more than 110 hi-hats loops!

These come in three flavours:
1. Sampler
2. Timemachine (timestretch algorithm)
3. Beatmachine (Recycle-like slicer)

The downside is that the "Beatmachine" Slicer in the Intakt player doesn't sound great. Even when you playback the loops at the original tempo it sounds choppy! Usually loops at 80 BPM should be played back at a minimum of 85 BPM or higher to sound natural…
Also the loops are fairly wet, which sometimes limits their usage.

On the plus-side, in this bundle you get 2 the extra drummers (Marco Minnemann & Dirk Sengotta) which have all of the above minus the pre-sliced "Beatmachine" option. Also you have Artist Drums with a selection of MIDI-files from four world-class drummers.

At 119 EUR (even less if you insert the code "aggregated rebate" into the message field!), I think this package might be the best place to start if you're looking for hi-hat & cymbal loops... for now.

TBlizz · Post by **TBlizz** » Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:43 am

UPDATE!
Kenny Gioia answered my prayers and has made a great & comprehensible hi-hat & ride cymbal library for only $24.95

Perfect to use in addition with EZdrummer, DFHS, BFD etc.

Check it out here: http://homepage.mac.com/produceher/hiha ... index.html

Where are the acoustic hi-hat patterns library in REX-format