Can we talk melodic minor?

[Toxikator]

I've come to find a lot of use for the i, iio, III, III+, iv, v, V, VI, (vi), VII, and viio. I would love to learn about the ii, IV, and #vio to round out my diatonic 'set' of chords. Anyone have any advice on how these chords work together with the natural/harmonic minor forms and their chords?

[Toxikator]

Please? I know at least one of you can offer some insight.

[JumpingJackFlash]

I've come to find a lot of use for the i, iio, III, III+, iv, v, V, VI, (vi), VII, and viio. I would love to learn about the ii, IV, and #vio to round out my diatonic 'set' of chords. Anyone have any advice on how these chords work together with the natural/harmonic minor forms and their chords?

Well, ii is just a minor chord, IV is just a major chord, so I doubt they need anything fancy, as long as they don't do anything objectionable (such as forbidden intervals, false relations etc.). #vi° is diminished, so might need care. Generally, I would guess that for best results, the 3rd should be prepared and then resolve (preferably down) by diatonic step. But context is always important of course.

[Toxikator]

But to say "just a minor chord" is silly. I mean, in major keys, vi is "just a minor chord" but functionally it serves as a chord of the third class which itself resolves the iii and in turn tends to move to iis and IVs... and functions as an acceptable resolution to the V7 so long as it doesn't mean to end a piece.

How can the ii be used? Obviously it's no parallel for the iio, as the iio has a dualistic function as both a secondary chord (resolves well to the V or viio or variants thereof) and as a first-class chord which resolves to the III (as an antetonic). The ii obviously does not "require" or beget any sort of resolution to the III as it doesn't have a diminished fifth which simulates the leading tone chord of the relative major... what then is its function? and what of the function of the IV? should it move to the V? Does that not too greatly suggest the major key? Not to mention the #vio; does it resolve to the nVII? but that would be a Dorian mode function; how does the #vio interact with the #viio of the true melodic minor form? If at all?

These are the questions for which I have no answer. I've come, over time, to gain a pretty fair understanding of the functions of the chords in the natural and harmonic minor forms, and I'd like to try to deal with the function of the melodic minor.

[JumpingJackFlash]

But to say "just a minor chord" is silly. I mean, in major keys, vi is "just a minor chord" but functionally it serves as a chord of the third class which itself resolves the iii and in turn tends to move to iis and IVs... and functions as an acceptable resolution to the V7 so long as it doesn't mean to end a piece.

How can the ii be used? Obviously it's no parallel for the iio, as the iio has a dualistic function as both a secondary chord (resolves well to the V or viio or variants thereof) and as a first-class chord which resolves to the III (as an antetonic). The ii obviously does not "require" or beget any sort of resolution to the III as it doesn't have a diminished fifth which simulates the leading tone chord of the relative major... what then is its function? and what of the function of the IV? should it move to the V? Does that not too greatly suggest the major key? Not to mention the #vio; does it resolve to the nVII? but that would be a Dorian mode function; how does the #vio interact with the #viio of the true melodic minor form? If at all?

These are the questions for which I have no answer. I've come, over time, to gain a pretty fair understanding of the functions of the chords in the natural and harmonic minor forms, and I'd like to try to deal with the function of the melodic minor.

Good questions, but maybe this is a case where thinking purely in terms of function is doing more harm than good?

I mean, chord vi in a major key for example can go just about anywhere. It doesn't have to go to iii, it can go directly to IV, ii, V etc.
With the first inversion you have more problems (generally only good before ii), but the root position chord doesn't have the kind of limits you imply.

[Toxikator]

vi doesn't go to iii.

iii goes to vi.

vi goes to ii, IV, and extensions thereof.

that's the PROGRESSION, anyway. There are of course equally important chord REGRESSIONS and chord SUCCESSIONS but they intentionally exploit the fact that the motion is unnatural. There is a certain natural movement to chords, a kind of gravity about the tonic, and EVERY tone fits into it in functional harmony. Outside of functional harmony, of course, this breaks down, but I'm FAR from that point.

[MadBrain]

Jazz theory uses melodic minor as a scale to get more modes out of (7 modes, in addition to the 7 modes of the major scale):

C-maj7
Dsus b9 (6)
Eb maj7 #4#5 (rare)
F7#11 (common, easy to use)
G7b6 (rare for harmony but makes nice melody)
Am9b5 (good replacement for m7b5)
Balt7 (crazy but nice for a V chord)

The jazz II-V-I in C melodic minor is:
Dm9b5 Galt7 C-maj7

Yep, that's chords from 3 different minor melodic scales. Unlike with major scale, you can't use just one scale for the whole II-V-I.


ii works mostly like iio. It just puts less dissonance where you use it. For instance, Dm7b5 G7 Cm sounds more decisive, but Dm7 G7 Cm is a tad smoother.

IV is quite similar to iv. It suggests dorian mode, so it has a more "celtic" sound. Try IV 7#11, it sounds really neat!

#VIm7 (and variations like #VIm7b5 or #VIm11b5 or #VI 7) leads to IIm7 (and variations) or VImaj7 (and variations).

[Toxikator]

spectacular... now if only I understood more than the first 10% of Jazz harmony I'd take it all to heart.

EDIT: Wait, what are you talking about exactly?

I don't know what kind of scale the ii9b5 Vb5b9 IM7 is built off of, but it CERTAINLY isn't C melodic minor.

[MadBrain]

EDIT: Wait, what are you talking about exactly?

I don't know what kind of scale the ii9b5 Vb5b9 IM7 is built off of, but it CERTAINLY isn't C melodic minor.

You have to play a different scale on each chord:

Dm9b5: D E F G Ab Bb C (Locrian, but with #2)
Galt7: G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F (superlocrian!)
C-maj7: C D Eb F G A B (normal melodic minor)

Notice that all the 3 scales are modes of the melodic minor scale.

[Ph-J]

vi doesn't go to iii.

uuhh ? ever heard the Pachelbel canon ?

For the melodic minor, you could read through Bach's minor Prelude & Fugues.

[Toxikator]

vi doesn't go to iii.

uuhh ? ever heard the Pachelbel canon ?

No sir. Though upon looking it up, I'd say that the reason for this motion is because of the deceptive cadence to vi. The piece doesn't "progress" from vi to iii, any more than it might progress from I to V. It just moves there.

I see your point, there are probably lots of instances where vi moves to iii... but when you play a vi in the progression the motion to iii is not a "resolving" motion. that's all.

[Ph-J]

vi doesn't go to iii.

uuhh ? ever heard the Pachelbel canon ?

No sir. Though upon looking it up, I'd say that the reason for this motion is because of the deceptive cadence to vi. The piece doesn't "progress" from vi to iii, any more than it might progress from I to V. It just moves there.

I see your point, there are probably lots of instances where vi moves to iii... but when you play a vi in the progression the motion to iii is not a "resolving" motion. that's all.

a harmonic "progression" is just a name to describe a succession of harmonic roots.
It doesn't have to be a "resolving motion" (I suppose by that you mean a strong or 'ascending' progression ?).
In the Pachelbel example, it's a simple sequence I-V vi-iii IV-I followed by a perfect cadence.

[Toxikator]

that's just a terminology thing; the way I learned it, a "progression" is the natural, resolving motion of a chord, a "regression" is the opposite motion of the progression, and a "succession" is an arbitrary motion to an unrelated chord.

When You're at the "I" chord, you can't "progress"... at least using those terms. All you can do is jump to another chord. In the Pachelbel example, the motion is from V to vi... a deceptive resolution which suggests the relative minor. In a key, a natural succession (word chosen carefully ) is from I to V... as a result, the vi to iii motion is a nice parallel. However, just as the V PROGRESSES naturally to the I, so the iii PROGRESSES naturally to the vi.

I can see where "chord progression" can easily mean any chord motion, so you'll have to excuse my nitpicking... it's just in this case when I say "progression" I mean "when I get to this chord, what's the natural way to move ahead?"

What I do find interesting about the Pachelbel example, though, is it demonstrates how the vi can function as an antetonic in a major key, allowing you to move as if in the minor.

As a followup - When talking in particular of chord Progressions we are typically talking about chord motions that are up by 4ths/down by 5ths, up by seconds, or down by 3rds. Since the motion from vi to iii is up by a 5th, there's also that.

[vurt]

why ask a question if when faced with not only replies but also real world accepted examples of what you ask, you just turn round and argue semantics?

progression means to move from one thing to another.

[Toxikator]

why ask a question if when faced with not only replies but also real world accepted examples of what you ask, you just turn round and argue semantics?

progression means to move from one thing to another.

My question was about the melodic minor and had nothing to do with whether or not a vi-iii motion technically constituted a "progression".

Also Madbrain:

EDIT: Wait, what are you talking about exactly?

I don't know what kind of scale the ii9b5 Vb5b9 IM7 is built off of, but it CERTAINLY isn't C melodic minor.

You have to play a different scale on each chord:

Dm9b5: D E F G Ab Bb C (Locrian, but with #2)
Galt7: G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F (superlocrian!)
C-maj7: C D Eb F G A B (normal melodic minor)

Notice that all the 3 scales are modes of the melodic minor scale.

I know that I derailed for a bit, but the only thing that differentiates the melodic minor from the major is that b3... so if you use a CMaj7, aren't you using C-E-G-B and completely removing the Eb?