KVR Audio

Fette Töle · Post by **Fette Töle** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:55 pm

Hi,

when I listen to certain mixes with my headphones, some sounds seem to be not only positioned horizontally in the stereo field (i.e. right vs. left), but also vertically. Sounds strange, eh? But really, some sounds seems to creep at the ground while others seem to come from somewhere above my head. And this has nothing to do with the frequency of those sounds (basses vs. heights).

I wonder how it is possible to achieve this effect with only 2 channels. What kind of effects would one need to position a sound vertically?

Thanks for any tipps

FT

m0j0byrd · Post by **m0j0byrd** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:04 pm

as i understand positioning, pan for horizontal and eq for vertical, where bass sits at the bottom and hats on top.

BertKoor · Post by **BertKoor** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:05 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-relat ... r_function
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holophonics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_recording
some HRTF and 3d plugins in our database

runagate · Post by **runagate** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:05 pm

you may find this interesting

runagate · Post by **runagate** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:08 pm

This is where Greg Schaepfer's Binaural Simulator VSTfx lives

Audeon · Post by **Audeon** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:36 pm

Your ears, due to their complex shape, have a complex transfer function, and thus filter the sound differently depending on the direction the sounds comes from. To determine the vertical position of a sound, your brain tries to figure out the transfer function of the filtering applied by your ear to the sound, and therefore derive what direction the sound came from.

BTW, you can experiment by yourself that it is easier to localize (vertically) a sound you're familiar with than a new sound. Indeed, the only way to retrieve the transfer function of you ear's filter is to compare the filtered sound you're hearing with the original sound. If you've never heard it, it's way more difficult for the brain to figure out where it comes from (horizontally it's always easy for the brain, by simply measuring the signal reception delay between your two ears, but not vertically)

=> To position a sound vertically, the trick is to simulate the direction-dependent filtering due to your ears (and head). This technique is called Head Related Transfer Function. However, as we all have different ears, our ears all filter the sound differently, so this system is more efficient when the filters are modelled after the listener's own ears/head rather than a generic filter. But obviously, in a mix you can only use a generic HRTF filtering.

Shy · Post by **Shy** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:43 pm

I've yet to see/hear any quality binaural audio simulator.

ew · Post by ew » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:56 pm

Shy wrote:I've yet to see/hear any quality binaural audio simulator.

Try Panorama. It's not perfect, but it works

ew

Shy · Post by **Shy** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:00 pm

Thanks for the suggestion, but I know it, like I know every single "3d" stereo field positioner

. Not what I'd call high quality, to say the least.

MaliceX · Post by **MaliceX** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:02 pm

It's a very complicated thing to talk about, as it involves a lot of phase inversions of signals and such to simulate the effect in stereo.

If you were talking about sound waves, I would've told you to use DC offset.

dusted william · Post by **dusted william** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:04 pm

runagate wrote:you may find this interesting

I've never heard of that VST.

I wonder if it can be bought.

dw

bleebsen · Post by **bleebsen** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:13 pm

To get a "real 3d" effect you'll probably need said HRTF plugins - but in the sense of a nicely separated mix all you need for this is EQ. Sounds with lots of treble will appear higher than sounds without.

runagate · Post by **runagate** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:16 pm

Choc's Binaural Spatializer VST (version 0.3)

3D Motion DrumMicPositioner

Omnisone

prodyspace

One of my not-so-secret mixing techniques is that I get nicely crisp, separated, zomming-here-and-there mixes utterly overstuffed with things going on by using weird mixtures of binaural 3D panning, multiband stereo width control and psychoacoustic multiband sidechain compression.

PTV · Post by **PTV** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:06 pm

+1 for Choc's Binaural Spatializer
Although my go to 3d panner is Audiomulch's SSpat.

Juanjo · Post by **Juanjo** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:37 pm

There's also the hrtf-vst one by Christian Budde: http://www.savioursofsoul.de/Christian/?page_id=8
(Direct download here: http://www.savioursofsoul.de/Christian/VST/HRTF3D.EXE)
Pretty simple and a bit buggy but quite cool nonetheless.

But as someone mentioned before, for simple mixing tasks i've always pictured pan for left-right, eq for up-down and reverb for close-far.

How to position a sound vertically in a stereo field?