KVR Audio

Koe:rade · Post by **Koe:rade** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:29 pm

Hi all,

I'm looking to get some info on vocal effects.
I'm really curious on what equipment Harsh EBM/Industrial bands use for vocal effects. I'm talking about bands like Psyclon Nine, Suicide Commando, Hocico, etc.
I am using a Digitech Vocal 300 which is okay, but doesn't seem to quite be able to do everything I am after. The only whay I seem to be able to get that Psyclon Nine-ish razor-style distortion is through whispering and turning alot of distortion. Even then it doesn't quite sound right and is really prone to feed back when using live.
I've tried using some guitar effects but they all seem quite prone to feedback. There also doesn't seem to be much serious vocal equipment that does stuff other than reverb, delay, harmonizing, etc.

Does anyone have any advice on this? Maybe vocoding coupled with effects?

I really want to be able to use these effects live so I need something that is pretty stable in regards to feedback.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Koe.

morphex · Post by **morphex** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:05 pm

Hi Koe:rade,

Most of the EBM/Industrial acts that I know of personally or have read about usually approach live vocals from a few different ways. One is to have someone at the mixing console controlling the vocalist's effects live. Another is to have effected backing tracks playing while the singer is either lip-singing or simply singing (with the mic fairly dry) along, which 'doubles-up' the sound of the vocal. The method I prefer to see is the one that Ogre from Skinny Puppy used to do back in the day...have a processor connected to a stand and change the parameters manually. This would enable the crowd to hear the results of your on-stage 'knob-twiddling'.

If this is out of the question for you because you want to be more focused on delivering a dramatic stage show, then you should have someone controlling your effects from the console. With abstract vocals and effects being such an integral part of the EBM/Industrial 'sound', feedback can be a major concern, especially because vocals are commonly routed through a lot of heavy compression and distortion. The sound engineer should be responsible for making sure you can use a certain amount of effects without any nasty unwanted feedback. That said, it's also your responsibility to know where you are in relation to the speakers or monitors so you don't make the job more difficult.

A lot of groups I've been around use high-end processors for their vocals because they're so important to the style of music they play. I also have a Digitech Vocal 300 but I use it for lo-fi effects in combination with my outboard synths, drum machines and yes, sometimes vocals (mostly spoken word that I'll mangle with software later). But if you want better quality effects, you're going to have to step up to the plate and (IMO) purchase a better processor. Ones that come to mind are some of the units from T.C. Electronic, Eventide, Lexicon, Yamaha, and even Kurzweil. Even a Korg Kaoss Pad 2 would be a step up. I'm sure you're looking at these brand names and thinking their processors are way too expensive, but don't forget about getting a used model. Obviouslly TC-Helicon make great vocal processors for live and studio situations. such as the VoiceWorks ($599) and VoicePro ($2999) while T.C. Electronic have the mighty FireworX ($1499). And I don't even need to go into detail with Eventide, they've been at the cutting-edge of processing (not just vocals) for a long time. The trick is to find a unit you're comfortable with, then when you do a live show, spend plenty of time on your sound check to make sure you find how much of an effect you can use before feedback becomes an issue. Besides, the venue should be prepared with a rack full of gear so that you'll sound great while feedback is being tamed, all behind the scene.

Another option used currently by a friend of mine is using his laptop as an effects unit. He's worked it out so that there's hardly any latency with his laptop and audio-interface. He uses the many effects plug-ins he has installed live or by singing/shouting through them while their parameters are changed by automation data that he had previously programmed. I've seen his show and it works really well. And yes, it can be risky using your computer as an effects device but, as I read in a magazine, during Madonna's latest tour, her vocals where processed live with the help of some Mac G5's and a rack of Liquid Channels (I think, I could be wrong but it was a hardware-based dsp solution). Of course your computer would have to be up to the task, and you would have to be confident in it.

Another option would be to use a chain of inexpensive processors and make sure you have a good limiter/compressor and an eq along with a good feeback eliminator. Maybe check out some guitar multi/effects boxes that are foot controlled for the sound you want. Good Luck!!

Peace - morphex

Koe:rade · Post by **Koe:rade** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:22 pm

Hi morphex

Thanks for the reply!

Yes the Digitech is quite low-end. At the moment when I have been using it reheasals it is sounding okay (still not some of the sounds I am after) but you can't notice the low quality too much. I am deffinately looking at getting something better for in studio and to do the job properly live. So thanks for your recommendations.

I recently picked up a Korg kaoss pad 3 actually. Wow what a fun piece of equipment. I can see alot of use for that in all areas. I needs more inputs! Maybe I need to buy a small mixing board to use with it!! haha.

The FireworX unit seems right up my alley actually! I will deffinately have a hunt around for this. Thanks for recommending it! I'm in Japan at the moment, and you can pick up equipment amazingly cheap over here, so I'm going to have a serious hunt!!

You seem like you are into some good music. Perhaps you would like to check out my band and let me know what you think. Not harsh EBM really... I just titled this post that, because I want to obtain a vocal effect in that vein for some areas of our music.
Anyway, myspace link is here. www.myspace.com/masqueradeaus

Thanks again for the reply.

Koe.

morphex · Post by **morphex** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:32 pm

Thanks for the link Koe, I'll check it out sometime soon!!

Peace - morphex

BONES · Post by **BONES** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:41 am

What you need to do is find a really good guitar distortion pedal. The best one I ever had was a blue Marshall stomp-box that had a really good sound for vocal distortion. Someone stole it from me [or I forgot it] at a gig and I never knew what the thing was called and I haven't been able to replace it. So instead I've been using an Ibanez pedal that sounds pretty good.
To stop feedback it feeds straight into a Behringer SHARK which has the Feedback Destroyer notch filters built in. You don't have to touch it, it just scans for feedback frequencies and eliminates them. It is utterly indispensible for doing this live.
That said, I'm working on using my Line 6 I/O device to do my vocal processing live in the future. The GearBox software that comes with it has a gazillion different amp/cab combinations as well as modeled stomp-box effects. You can also buy add-on packs for more sounds. It runs outside the Windoze audio system at virtually zero latency so it should work a treat. I'll just connect my mic directly to the Shark and then plug the Shark into the Line-In on my KB37. The KB37 has two footswitch jacks which I will use to change patches for each soong so it should be a set-and-forget set-up when I get it up and running. If you don't want all that, you can pick up a UX-1 pretty cheaply, and the new GX is even more ridiculously cheap, and I think it might be a better way to go than buying a hardware FX unit.

Hey, nice stuff! Do you know Intrasonic? We played a gig in Sydney with them a while back, with Pssyche. If you're ever over in the east and you want to play, let u sknow and we'll see what we can organise.

zerocrossing · Post by **zerocrossing** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:09 am

Find the pedal you like (I love my Line6 distortion modeler) but what you need is a gate after it of some sort to help kill your feedback issue. Or better yet, stop using on stage monitors and go with a wireless in ear monitor system and your feedback problems will be gone.

morphex · Post by **morphex** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:12 am

Great ideas BONES, while you were typing your post, I was looking at the specs for the SHARK and I agree that this would be a sound investment (no pun intended). It comes with "an ultra low-noise mic/line preamp with a variety of useful signal processing options, including feedback elimination, compression and noise gating, switchable 48V phantom power, 24-bit A/D-D/A conversion and balanced connections". And at $80 U.S., that's a bargain.

Just a couple of tips I've learned from other groups/performers -

If you have backing tracks that are being played (i.e.-synths, effects, pads, ect,) along with your live performance, set aside some time before the show to lay down a few backing vocals. Since crazy, processed vocals are the order of the day in EBM/Industrial music, don't feel like you're 'cheating' if you sing/scream along with some well placed effected vocal lines. For example, let's say that you have a specific word or string of words that you want to come across as being important or punctuated. If it's a line that you sing the same way most of the time, sing with a backing track that's been distorted, eq'd and pitch shifted down a whole octave. When your live voice is doubled with the effected voice (who's volume should be relatively low), you'll end up with a thickness and emphasis on those particular words.

Now, I've seen some groups use this and other tricks with their backing tracks to the point of it sounding 'pre-programmed' and it takes the thrill of the sound out of the performance, for me anyway. Sometimes it can be a great benefit to pre-record vocoded vocals and during the chorus, sing over the top with delay on your live signal set to 1/4 note taps. Another great vocal trick that is always used by one of my favorite influences (Depeche Mode), is to playback a reversed reverb trail that meets the live vocal. Think reeeeeeeeeaaaaach out and touch faith...faith and so on. I love that effect, and although Personal Jesus is known for that effect, using it sparingly in your own performances live gives the listener a sense of anticipation (especially if they know the lyrics), as well as a classy, otherworldly vibe.

Well, these are just some thoughts...do with them what you will. Oh, and Koe:rade, I checked out your myspace page...cool stuff!! How about you BONES or zerocrossing, you guys got anything posted somewhere? I don't have any links to music that I've made in this genre or I'd share. But thanks for sharing your stuff!!

Peace - morphex

Koe:rade · Post by **Koe:rade** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:47 am

Hey guys,

That sounds like a really good idea. Although I guess I'll have to find a pedal I like, I dunno how I'll do that with so many out there though. Even just getting this shark should solve some of the probolems I am having with the Vocal 3000 and let me push it abit more.

I really like the idea of being able to have live unisoned vocals with that FirewoX however. I'm going to have a hunt around some stores today and see if I can figure out something thats going to suit what I need. As, I said pedals are just a bit bewildering and almost imposible to get an idea of what they can do in the store (especially with vocals).

Morphex, I do run quite a few vocal things with the backing track, and yes I've delved into that reverse reverb trick... See "Recorder gpmix" on the myspace... it's used very subtley at the beggining. It is a good idea for short distored and effected parts, and I do use it like that I just remembered haha... But I don't want to be lip-syncing the whole track, as I'm sure you can understand!!

Thanks for the nice words on the music =)

Oh BONES, yep I know Toby from Intrasonic. He's gone to Berlin now for good. Setting up the band there. I will be sure to let you know if we are ever over east indeed. Oh by the way, one of the synths on our track "Doubtless" was made with your very own NOVAKILLER X2! =)

Koe.

BONES · Post by **BONES** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:24 am

No wonder I liked the sound of it so much!

Koe:rade · Post by **Koe:rade** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:38 am

haha!

Exie · Post by **Exie** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:56 pm

Keep in mind that it should be more efficient to use PC for such a subtle thing as unusual live vocal processing.
Or maybe you'll need to try some guitar fx processors instead of stompboxes. You'll get all their pros (their distortion variety and fine fx) and no cons (you don't need the authentic guitar sound, do you? )))

BONES · Post by **BONES** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:40 pm

There is nothing subtle about singing through distortion, believe me. Stomp boxes have definite advantages over other methods - they are a lot cheaper, they sound good, the're easy to tweak while you're performing [if you have feedback problems, for instance] and it's easy to stomp them off between songs [without having to buy a foot pedal] so that the crowd can hear your insults.

Koe:rade · Post by **Koe:rade** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:11 am

After looking around... Im really keen on the TC Electronic FireworX.
Has anyone had any direct experience with these things on vocals?
From everything I've read on the net they sound like an amazing box for use on just about everything... Wondering if anyone has any hands-on experience with some more crazy vocal effects though.

Sugar Bytes · Post by **Sugar Bytes** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:32 am

Hi, checkout Artillery 2. You need a computer on stage, but you can do a lot of crazy stuff with it, starting effects with a keyboard. Its possible that the keyboarder or the singer him/herself controls the voice effects onstage. You have instant vocoding, different kinds of loopers and pitchers, standad stuff like delays etc... I use Artillery for some years now onstage, only remixing some live signals with the keyboard. Big fun and the audience freaks out. We will do a standalone soon, so no host is needed for live use anymore.

Koe:rade · Post by **Koe:rade** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:41 am

That sounds like a very cool program actually! A standalone would deffinately be a good move I think.

Vocal Effects - Industrial/Harsh EBM