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poopcola · Post by **poopcola** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:23 am

Can anyone enlighten me (or direct me to a link) on how to use 9ths, 13ths, etc in progressions.
I'm interested to know if they need particular preparation and resolution or if the notes can be used as embellishments as the chord is being played.

Thanks in advance...

21/12/2012

Dewdman42 · Post by **Dewdman42** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:42 pm

Check out some books from the Berklee school of music bookstore on harmony. They discuss these types of "rules" to use so called "tension notes". Otherwise, its a deep subject. Lots of jazz books cover this topic well, but if you follow the jazz books too closely, you'll end up sounding....well.....jazzy. Still the rules about avoid notes and chordscales are all really important to help you figure out when you can use a 13th and when you can't, and when you need to flatten or sharpen one, etc...

poopcola · Post by **poopcola** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:07 am

Awesome, thanks Dewdman. Good to know there are still some in depth topics to look in to. Cheers.

21/12/2012

hibidy · Post by **hibidy** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:30 am

Dewdman42 wrote:Check out some books from the Berklee school of music bookstore on harmony. They discuss these types of "rules" to use so called "tension notes". Otherwise, its a deep subject. Lots of jazz books cover this topic well, but if you follow the jazz books too closely, you'll end up sounding....well.....jazzy. Still the rules about avoid notes and chordscales are all really important to help you figure out when you can use a 13th and when you can't, and when you need to flatten or sharpen one, etc...

btw, I have more than one of these "videos" and they are good

However, and I kid you not, the "____ grimoire" has one of the best explanations of 9ths/13ths I've ever seen! (and 11ths)

raikard233 · Post by **raikard233** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:06 am

OT
Hey poopcola, what about the signature date???
(something return im my mind...)

nuffink · Post by **nuffink** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:35 am

The basic rule is that tensions should not form the interval of a minor 9th (13 semitones, or an octave plus a semitone) over any of the chord notes.

Dewdman42 · Post by **Dewdman42** » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:16 pm

Sounds about right Nuffink.

poopcola · Post by **poopcola** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:07 am

Raikard233, that date is a very in depth topic, Google it!!!

A quick overview;
5D reality is on its way, if you choose to be a part of it...
ESP, aliens, UFO's and much much more!

Back to this music stuff: is the minor ninth to be avoided because of "harsh" dissonance? If this is the case then thats what I'm looking for!

shanecgriffo · Post by **shanecgriffo** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:15 am

Basically seventh eg c7, ninth and thirteenth chords are all interchangeable and from the dominant (flattened7th) family. -its only when you start altering any notes that the rules change-. So a blues in C for example could be played with any of those dominant variations on the 1, 4 and 5 chords (C,F and G)

shanecgriffo · Post by **shanecgriffo** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:23 am

is the minor ninth to be avoided because of "harsh" dissonance

try this progression -
Bm7b5, E7b9, Am6.
beautiful sounding.. not too much dissonance there!
7b9 chords also fit in with diminished sounds.

poopcola · Post by **poopcola** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:28 am

Thanks for the quick reply Shanecgriffo,

This is where I get a little confused, I assume that when you say flattened 7th that you mean a minor 7th? Again assuming were talking about a C maj chord this would mean that the chord consists of C,E,G,A#(Bb)? But A# isnt in the C maj scale!

I'm having trouble with getting my head around use of chromatic notes (accidentals?) as my understanding of using a scale is that you only use notes in that scale. I understand that rules are made to be broken but it seems that the more I learn the less I understand!

Any tips on how I can bring about some clarity in relation to this?

Cheers

shanecgriffo · Post by **shanecgriffo** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:43 am

blues and jazz for example dont solely use major scale harmony and in blues for example ,yes those chords have minor 7th notes not from the scale (except in the case of G7th, as G is built on the 5th degree of c major in this case -so there is an F note from that scale ,which is the minor 7th of G).. It can only be fully explained and understood with a lot of work. Find a good book, course or teacher if you really want to dive in deep!

I did a jazz course ,full time for two years and that still didnt allow me to fully understand all the theory.!! I'd write more but i'm just on prepaid dial-up cause i couldn't afford my broadband bills .

shanecgriffo · Post by **shanecgriffo** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:44 am

and i'm a pretty crappy slow typist.. haha

poopcola · Post by **poopcola** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:46 am

Cool, thanks for the pointers. I've started delving into some jazz theory lately and yes its very in depth. With some patience and a lot of focus I'm sure I'll eventually get my head around this crazy artform.

Thanks again.

nuffink · Post by **nuffink** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:19 am

poopcola wrote:I'm having trouble with getting my head around use of chromatic notes (accidentals?) as my understanding of using a scale is that you only use notes in that scale. I understand that rules are made to be broken but it seems that the more I learn the less I understand!

Any tips on how I can bring about some clarity in relation to this?

Jazz theory treats every chord change as an opportunity to use a different scale. These are called chord scales. Here's how it works.

Assuming you're playing in C major, a ii-V-I would be Dmin7 - G7 - Cmaj7 (jaaathers love 7ths). Now you can play the notes C,D,E,F,G,A,B over this whole progression and in diatonic harmony that's exactly what you'd do.
Looked at another way you could say that instead of playing the C major scale over the whole progression you're playing D Dorian over the Dmin7, G Mixolydian over the G7 and C Ionian over the Cmaj7. It's the same notes C,D,E,F,G,A,B just looked at in a different way.

But (and I'm gonna scare you now) there are plenty of scales other than D Dorian that fit over a Dmin7 chord...

D Aolian
D Mela Hemavati
D Mela Natakapriya
D Phrygian
D Hungarian Major
D Mela Sadvidhamargini
D Phrygian flat 4th
D Octatonic

... will all do the job and will all impart their own flavour to the music. All of these scales contain at least one note (an accidental) which isn't in the C major scale.

You can do the same excercise for G7...

G Lydian Dominant
G Hungarian Major
G Mela Carukesi
G Mela Ramapriya
G Octatonic
G Mela Chakravakam
G Phrygian flat 4th
G Mela Vakulabharanam

...and Cmaj7...

C Lydian
C Mela Kosalam
C Harmonic Major

The point is that an experienced jaather will know and be able to use a fair proportion of these chord scales (although probably not by those names) for every chord type.

Use of 9ths, 13ths in chord progressions