Looking for a Midi Controller combo
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- KVRian
- 1236 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Karlshamn, Sweden
Is there a controller (or combination of controllers) that let me have 8x16 buttons in rows, and a minimum 2x16 knobs for the rows? I have a trigger finger that works really good, but i need more room.
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- KVRAF
- 6937 posts since 4 Jun, 2004 from Utrecht, Holland
Haven't ever seen a matrix of 8x16, but there are many controllers with 88 "buttons" in a row.
It's called a "keyboard"
It's called a "keyboard"
My MusicCalc is temporary offline.
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1236 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Karlshamn, Sweden
Now that we have the out of the way, anyone else?
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- KVRist
- 90 posts since 5 Feb, 2005
Still cannot understand why Behringer or M-Audio have not created one of these. Something like the BCR2000 but just have lines of buttons. There are lots of options for multiple knows/keys but very little for purly buttons on a controller. The only exception is Faderfox who have a 64 (if I remember correctly) button controller. It has a small form factor but unfortunately is only midi (no USB).
The Mononome is the closest but requires max/msp to operate as it does not contain any form of midi and the data has to be converted. They sell pre-buit ones (although last I looked they had quite a waiting list) or the modules to build your own. These controllers are 8x8 but they have a 16x8 production model almost ready. Finally the last option is to build your own. I have picked up a Point of sale keyboard that will (time permitted) be used to create a 16x8 button array for midi. The difference between POS and normal keyboards is that the keys are not staggered so instead create a perfecty pad for buttons.
Given all this would still leave the problem with the knobs but more than one controller can be used together and there are lots of options (BCR2000 for instance that provide more than enough knowbs for your needs (32 rotary endless controllers in all)
http://faderfox.de/html/lx2_product_page.html
http://monome.org/articles/2007/06/05/ahead/
The Mononome is the closest but requires max/msp to operate as it does not contain any form of midi and the data has to be converted. They sell pre-buit ones (although last I looked they had quite a waiting list) or the modules to build your own. These controllers are 8x8 but they have a 16x8 production model almost ready. Finally the last option is to build your own. I have picked up a Point of sale keyboard that will (time permitted) be used to create a 16x8 button array for midi. The difference between POS and normal keyboards is that the keys are not staggered so instead create a perfecty pad for buttons.
Given all this would still leave the problem with the knobs but more than one controller can be used together and there are lots of options (BCR2000 for instance that provide more than enough knowbs for your needs (32 rotary endless controllers in all)
http://faderfox.de/html/lx2_product_page.html
http://monome.org/articles/2007/06/05/ahead/
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1236 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Karlshamn, Sweden
I couldnt agree more about the m-audio part, it really puzzles me.
Yes ive been looking into a combo with Monome and BCR2000 actually, but as you say, max/msp is needed, and that would be too much hassle imo.
Faderfox seems nice, but too smallish for my needs.
I decided to build my own thing as well, but from scratch. Its gonna be some interesting months ahead doing the design of the beast, and then hopefully it will be able to realize it as well.
Thanks for a serious reply.
Yes ive been looking into a combo with Monome and BCR2000 actually, but as you say, max/msp is needed, and that would be too much hassle imo.
Faderfox seems nice, but too smallish for my needs.
I decided to build my own thing as well, but from scratch. Its gonna be some interesting months ahead doing the design of the beast, and then hopefully it will be able to realize it as well.
Thanks for a serious reply.
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- KVRist
- 90 posts since 5 Feb, 2005
your welcome.
Mine is a work in progress that is just progressing as and when I have time. I fortunately have a good background in electronics so building something suitable from scratch is a viable option. I decided to base my design on an AVR micro controller. They are quite easy to work with (in fact the Monome is based on an AVR MEGA chip) very cheap, and have the appropriate architecture to create midi with only a small amount of code. It puzzles me why the Monome project has to use MAX/MSP at all. It would not take a great deal to send midi out and maybe control the leds via midi input System exclusive. I am not a fan of MAX/MSP + adding other midi processing /mung/conversion applications to create the midi when it can be done just a easily in C++/Delphi or even .NET. Midi is after all a very simple protocol that runs quite slowly in comparison to todays processing speeds.
My decision to use a POS keyboard instead of creating a matrix of buttons was a pure case of economics. 128 buttons for around $20 is not possible using single switches. These keyboards are designed for commercial applications and even industrial settings so the build quality reflects the price but at the same time they are very solid and reliable. I was hoping to utilize the ps2 output of the keyboard and convert that but the encoder was DOA. Not surprising considering the cost of a new keyboard is around $200! So the next stage is to design a small encoder circuit to replace the existing one. Like I say, there has been no rush and I like to create music rather than spend all my free time creating this box.
I estimate it will be finished around the next 4 months, which is no problem as there doesn't appear to be a commercial option before then. It could have been quicker but I just pick parts up as I see the best prices which has at least kept the build cost to a minimum. Total cost should be around $50-60 when I include LED feedback for all of the buttons which I think will be pretty hard to beat even if a product is made available off the shelf.
Take a look at http://www.avrfreaks.net/ and run a search for MIDI. There are schematics for a few designs including one that converts PS2 keyboard input to Midi CC's/or Notes, a couple of fader/encoder type designs and drum triggers. Some use coding in C some in Assembly (which is not as scary as it sounds) and the IDE/Development evnvironment is free from the manufacturer or uses open source compilers.
Mine is a work in progress that is just progressing as and when I have time. I fortunately have a good background in electronics so building something suitable from scratch is a viable option. I decided to base my design on an AVR micro controller. They are quite easy to work with (in fact the Monome is based on an AVR MEGA chip) very cheap, and have the appropriate architecture to create midi with only a small amount of code. It puzzles me why the Monome project has to use MAX/MSP at all. It would not take a great deal to send midi out and maybe control the leds via midi input System exclusive. I am not a fan of MAX/MSP + adding other midi processing /mung/conversion applications to create the midi when it can be done just a easily in C++/Delphi or even .NET. Midi is after all a very simple protocol that runs quite slowly in comparison to todays processing speeds.
My decision to use a POS keyboard instead of creating a matrix of buttons was a pure case of economics. 128 buttons for around $20 is not possible using single switches. These keyboards are designed for commercial applications and even industrial settings so the build quality reflects the price but at the same time they are very solid and reliable. I was hoping to utilize the ps2 output of the keyboard and convert that but the encoder was DOA. Not surprising considering the cost of a new keyboard is around $200! So the next stage is to design a small encoder circuit to replace the existing one. Like I say, there has been no rush and I like to create music rather than spend all my free time creating this box.
I estimate it will be finished around the next 4 months, which is no problem as there doesn't appear to be a commercial option before then. It could have been quicker but I just pick parts up as I see the best prices which has at least kept the build cost to a minimum. Total cost should be around $50-60 when I include LED feedback for all of the buttons which I think will be pretty hard to beat even if a product is made available off the shelf.
Take a look at http://www.avrfreaks.net/ and run a search for MIDI. There are schematics for a few designs including one that converts PS2 keyboard input to Midi CC's/or Notes, a couple of fader/encoder type designs and drum triggers. Some use coding in C some in Assembly (which is not as scary as it sounds) and the IDE/Development evnvironment is free from the manufacturer or uses open source compilers.
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- KVRian
- 1492 posts since 29 Apr, 2004
yeah, i really dont see the point why there is no such thing, buttons+LED is eventually too cheap, so you cannot make real money.. hmm. 
if you think about buttons dont forget you got your computer keyboard too!
mkey
http://www.adbe.org/freebies/plugins/mkey.html
does a good job here.. mkey produces only midi note and some special key functions, if you want CC's you have to remap the data somehow. does not give us LED buttons, i use mkey for sample playback and vst effect control (live playing). i am looking too for a new button controller, cute faderfox lx2 appeals to me a lot - only thing is i dont use ableton and dont like the text prints on the front panel... i use the LED buttons on my BCR (20 led buttons) meanwhile...
LED buttons are crucial for pattern select, mute, etc.
to have programmable LEDS on your usual computer keyboard would be a nice thing, i doubt wheter it exists
if you think about buttons dont forget you got your computer keyboard too!
mkey
http://www.adbe.org/freebies/plugins/mkey.html
does a good job here.. mkey produces only midi note and some special key functions, if you want CC's you have to remap the data somehow. does not give us LED buttons, i use mkey for sample playback and vst effect control (live playing). i am looking too for a new button controller, cute faderfox lx2 appeals to me a lot - only thing is i dont use ableton and dont like the text prints on the front panel... i use the LED buttons on my BCR (20 led buttons) meanwhile...
LED buttons are crucial for pattern select, mute, etc.
to have programmable LEDS on your usual computer keyboard would be a nice thing, i doubt wheter it exists
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1236 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Karlshamn, Sweden
tboneUS,
youre doing some wicked stuff there, sounds really interesting and i would love to see the progress on the POS tweakings. im afraid im not THAT talented to be able to use a POS and whats not, wish i were tho, as the wouldnt be a limit to what kind of gear u could make for yourself then. please let me know how it goes, im most curious.
amiga909,
i see what u mean, but i need LEDs to see what button is pressed, as i intend to trigger Clips from Live with it. i have a midi keyboard i could use if it werent for that.
i had a plan tweaking a regular PC keyboard and installing LEDs under the keys, or doin the same with a midi keyboard, but well, i decided to design a bigger tool for the job instead. faderfox's looks tasty for sure, but too small and one have to switch button-banks al lthe time. i rather use my trigger finger instead to be honest.
youre doing some wicked stuff there, sounds really interesting and i would love to see the progress on the POS tweakings. im afraid im not THAT talented to be able to use a POS and whats not, wish i were tho, as the wouldnt be a limit to what kind of gear u could make for yourself then. please let me know how it goes, im most curious.
amiga909,
i see what u mean, but i need LEDs to see what button is pressed, as i intend to trigger Clips from Live with it. i have a midi keyboard i could use if it werent for that.
i had a plan tweaking a regular PC keyboard and installing LEDs under the keys, or doin the same with a midi keyboard, but well, i decided to design a bigger tool for the job instead. faderfox's looks tasty for sure, but too small and one have to switch button-banks al lthe time. i rather use my trigger finger instead to be honest.
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- KVRist
- 90 posts since 5 Feb, 2005
amiga909
The CC's can be remapped using a midi mung plugin (see the EnergyXT forum for suitable plugins) I just found it a pain to use a standard keyboard so knocked up a quick circuit to created cc's from a standard pc keyboard. There was no munging required that way. This lead me to the exact use steffesen is wanting to achieve, the triggering of clips in live.
Steffensen
The thing is although it may seem like a matrix of buttons is the best way to do this it can also be quite usable to only have say 16 buttons and move up/down the clips using a rotary control or buttons depending on how randomly placed the clips are that you need to trigger. Like amiga909 mentioned, MKEY and a keyboard can be used, if only to find out what you could get away with (or more what you can do without). I originally wanted to have this option (hence the 16*8 matrix) but I'm leaning more to using the buttons as a dedicated control surface to emulate the Mackie control and run certain macros for combinations in Ableton live. There are never enough buttons on the available controllers (without bank swapping) to get all of the functionality that a Mackie control does even when connecting different ones together.
The Mackie protocol can produce the feedback you require for the mutes/solos/arms etc but also take a look at the Ableton api some guys have been working on. It can provide data via telnet or osc as to the status of the clips. It is programmed in python but that is just the server side, the client side can be anything that can interpret telent comms or osc comms. I have a osc comms library for .Net that appears to receive the Ableton data ok (although not really had time to fully test yet just altered the tempo and received the track names etc).
The CC's can be remapped using a midi mung plugin (see the EnergyXT forum for suitable plugins) I just found it a pain to use a standard keyboard so knocked up a quick circuit to created cc's from a standard pc keyboard. There was no munging required that way. This lead me to the exact use steffesen is wanting to achieve, the triggering of clips in live.
Steffensen
The thing is although it may seem like a matrix of buttons is the best way to do this it can also be quite usable to only have say 16 buttons and move up/down the clips using a rotary control or buttons depending on how randomly placed the clips are that you need to trigger. Like amiga909 mentioned, MKEY and a keyboard can be used, if only to find out what you could get away with (or more what you can do without). I originally wanted to have this option (hence the 16*8 matrix) but I'm leaning more to using the buttons as a dedicated control surface to emulate the Mackie control and run certain macros for combinations in Ableton live. There are never enough buttons on the available controllers (without bank swapping) to get all of the functionality that a Mackie control does even when connecting different ones together.
The Mackie protocol can produce the feedback you require for the mutes/solos/arms etc but also take a look at the Ableton api some guys have been working on. It can provide data via telnet or osc as to the status of the clips. It is programmed in python but that is just the server side, the client side can be anything that can interpret telent comms or osc comms. I have a osc comms library for .Net that appears to receive the Ableton data ok (although not really had time to fully test yet just altered the tempo and received the track names etc).