lydian mode allowed chords?

[offensive-teenager]

Help?

I know that i should use fmaj7 in c lydian? but what other chords should i use and are there any progressions that should be avoided?

Is there any way to determine which chords are suitable for that mode any other than just trying out?!

I really would like to make a song in lydian mode but then always some strange chord appears that ruins the mode

[terragong]

does this help.... ?
http://chrisjuergensen.com.hosting.doma ... odes_3.htm

[offensive-teenager]

hmmh. I have to admit that i really didnt understand much of that.

[noiselurker]

As I sit here and listen to the Cocteau Twins here:

Any two notes in C maj which is as you said F Lydian, just start on the fourth chord and return to it alot and it will bring out the sound of the mode.

[noiselurker]

Guess you'll use ur face alot,...ok there aren't many good music theory jokes, there is one good list here somewhere lost it....

[noiselurker]

1. Ionian mode (the major scale)
2. Dorian mode
3. Phrygian mode
4. Lydian mode
5. Mixolydian mode
6. Aolian mode (the natural minor scale)
7. Locrian mode


Make a pnemonic device to remember that and ur mint.

Mine's dirty, I can't say.

[noiselurker]

does this help.... ?
http://chrisjuergensen.com.hosting.doma ... odes_3.htm

Most important part of that is, know your major scales, or memorize all your chords and then have someone show you the scale patterns in the chords, which is backwards for me, because, I'm one of those poor guys where nuns hit my hands with rulers without memorizing my scales. <Of course none of that is true, ok all of it cept the nuns part.

[nuffink]

Help?

I know that i should use fmaj7 in c lydian? but what other chords should i use and are there any progressions that should be avoided?

Is there any way to determine which chords are suitable for that mode any other than just trying out?!

I really would like to make a song in lydian mode but then always some strange chord appears that ruins the mode

Some confusion here.

Fmaj7 is the characteristic chord of the Lydian mode of the C major scale.
C Lydian doesn't contain a F. Its notes are C, D, E, F#, G, A, B

So...

Don't confuse modes with scales and don't try to write songs in the Lydian (or any other mode) unless you're happy having no chord progression. Start a chord progression in the Lydian mode and you'll soon hear it as belonging to the major scale a fourth down/fifth up. The progression is heard in relation to the prime (major in this case) scale.

Modal songwriting is difficult specifically because it's based over a static chord. Your melody has to be that much stronger as it's unsupported by a chord progression.

[jcivil]

Help?

I know that i should use fmaj7 in c lydian? but what other chords should i use and are there any progressions that should be avoided?

Is there any way to determine which chords are suitable for that mode any other than just trying out?!

I really would like to make a song in lydian mode but then always some strange chord appears that ruins the mode

well, as C lydian doesn't contain an F, I think not any kind of F-as-root sonority is not really of that mode.

the mode lydian/C tonic is the same as a G major scale (F# is the seventh degree of that formation), but C is "1" (I);
With modes, we are looking at what is the characteristic SOUND of the thing: here it is the augmented fourth, C and F#. Now, over the bass C, 'suspend' the F# against its neighbor G, and resolve to E, THAT IS LYDIAN. Over the pedal C, move a first inversion D chord (IE F# bass) to C/E BASS; that is the characteristic sound.


GENERALLY the same diatonic chords in G major apply:

G
a minor
b minor
C
D
e minor

though you shouldn't need them, because modality is melodic in thrust, and chords might get in the way.

that said, to answer your specific enquiry on wrong-sounding chords:

[as I have indicated elsewhere] the so-called dominant chord sound in the key, eg: "D 7", V7, generally has the implication of some form of resolution, or at least indicates a strong relationship with a tonic G, which as it IS NOT the tonic in MODAL USAGE, may best be avoided.
[by extension, the 'vii' chord of the scale we've modalized, f# a c, a diminished triad, is essentially the same as the V chord, sans its bass, IE; same function...]

This sound destroys the modal inflection, in most cases.

Note well:

True modal melody doesn't imply harmony in the same way as diatonic major and/or minor tonality does; listen to the sound of it, first, listen to it over a pedal tonic:
listen to the G maj scale, start and end point, C, over a Sustained G in the bass, over G - D - G alternating sound in the bass, let it sit, let it vibrate, HEAR IT; it's not the same as major/minor. think melodically, in the first place, chords should NOT be the thrust.

if you still feel you need chords over it, feel them out; don't try to push them around or let them push you around, befriend them, play around.

[Sascha Franck]

Nuffink already sort of nailed it. Once you start using "true" chord progressions, you will often find the modal character to be sort of destroyed.
Yet, there's a few typical progressions to "support" modes.
For instance, a progression like Amin7 / D7, even if a II-V movement in G major, could be a typical dorian progression (listen to tunes such as "Oyo Come Va" from Santana).
For mixolydian it might be something such as A7 / G.
For phrygian it could be Amin7 / Bb(maj7).
For lydian it could be Amaj7 / B.

These are just examples, especially for dorian there's more progressions to support the mode, maybe because it's a pretty much established replacement for a "plain" minor (natural or harmonic) context in a lot of modern pop/soul/funk/jazz tunes.
Similar things can be said for mixolydian.
However, lydian, also phrygian and especially locrian are rather "fragile" modes, so using chord progressions to establish them becomes a bit of hit and miss. It's a lot about how you establish the "tonic", by duration, rhythm and melody.

Fwiw, a rather common approach to establish modes would be to use a pedal bass and superimpose the scalar chords over that bass.

[offensive-teenager]

thanks for replies! This cleared a lot of things for me! I'll try making something using "lydian mode" and post it for your "enjoyment".

[jcivil]

Nuffink already sort of nailed it. Once you start using "true" chord progressions, you will often find the modal character to be sort of destroyed.
Yet, there's a few typical progressions to "support" modes.
For instance, a progression like Amin7 / D7, even if a II-V movement in G major, could be a typical dorian progression (listen to tunes such as "Oyo Come Va" from Santana).
For mixolydian it might be something such as A7 / G.
For phrygian it could be Amin7 / Bb(maj7).
For lydian it could be Amaj7 / B.

These are just examples, especially for dorian there's more progressions to support the mode, maybe because it's a pretty much established replacement for a "plain" minor (natural or harmonic) context in a lot of modern pop/soul/funk/jazz tunes.
Similar things can be said for mixolydian.
However, lydian, also phrygian and especially locrian are rather "fragile" modes, so using chord progressions to establish them becomes a bit of hit and miss. It's a lot about how you establish the "tonic", by duration, rhythm and melody.

Fwiw, a rather common approach to establish modes would be to use a pedal bass and superimpose the scalar chords over that bass.

needs context.

1) Oye Como Va is not really a modal melody. The tune is tied to the progression; notice how when you sing the tune, you are implying its two chords. "Dorian" as you are discussing it is more like minor with an accidental raised sixth.

2) Look for the characteristic sound of a mode, as a melodic structure first. 'A Mixolydian's natural character contains the so-called A7 chord, because the characteristic sound is all about the minor seventh and the major third. Mixolydian is a 'replacement for' - major? No. It has a markedly different character; in major, the I7 acts as V7 of IV, and begs IV. the g, the 7th, wants to go to F# while the C# goes to D. In mixolydian qua mixolydian, the seventh is STATIC, it begs nothing. As it defines the characteristic of the mode, it's more or less equal to the tonic. I and bVII have a balance of gravity you DO NOT HAVE in major, there's no real equivalence there.

your word 'fragile' can only be used in a diatonic/tonal frame, we are in a different frame with modal thinking. If you have not 'established by duration' the pedal, you are not acting in a manner consistent with modal melody. A mode is a purely melodic entity, and cannot reasonably be said to have fragility in the sense you've asserted. Lydian is a very strong sound. Phrygian, Locrian, that minor second descent is as inescapable as it gets in a line, how is that fragile? sticking more than two chords to any mode is not a good idea, you are fighting nature with it, and that might have a fragile result. (a musician with only a western frame to work with means she is using, in all probability, 12-tone equal temperament. The nature of a fundamental tone vibrating in concert with other tones is already by definition compromised (to obtain chords that modulate consistently from one tonic to another), so she is not satisfied with a group of tones, and wants some action some kinda way, hence chords. To replace natural harmonic phenomena, which are implied but actually missing, with something.

Fwiw, a rather common approach to establish modes would be to use a pedal bass and superimpose the scalar chords over that bass.

This is THE approach. Now, the tension in popular and jazz usage is this modal inflection or influence (which is the thrust in a great deal of non-western music) applied against harmonic concepts derived from western music. To give it flavor, spice. That's great, it makes the world go round. To ignore the actuality of modal melody to find a whole lotta chords in order to put fancy clothes to it, IE, due to this frame (chord progressions) we've endeavored to put it in, puts the cart before the horse.

[Laguna Rising]

For instance, a progression like Amin7 / D7, even if a II-V movement in G major, could be a typical dorian progression (listen to tunes such as "Oyo Come Va" from Santana).
For mixolydian it might be something such as A7 / G.
For phrygian it could be Amin7 / Bb(maj7).
For lydian it could be Amaj7 / B.

I'm always in trouble figuring out the right chords for my modal experiments
This examples made it clear

[Laguna Rising]

sticking more than two chords to any mode is not a good idea, you are fighting nature with it, and that might have a fragile result. (a musician with only a western frame to work with means she is using, in all probability, 12-tone equal temperament. The nature of a fundamental tone vibrating in concert with other tones is already by definition compromised

Ok I think I got it...

[Dewdman42]

If you want a lydian sounding bit of music...I'm not sure about the whole song being lydian...but let's say you want to have a phrase that sounds Lydian. You can even linger around in Lydian for quite a while in your song or composition if you want...or meander between Lydian modes of different keys through modulation...

Try the following...Start in the key of C...play through some normal C major sounding stuff. Now throw in a D major chord. Try it with the root locked on C to keep a sense of C..... Play around between C major chord and D major chord with a C bass the whole time. Go from there. fiddle around with melodies on top of this that involve the C Lydian scale (F#). After 4 bars or 8, change to a similar type thing, but using Gmaj and Fmaj chords over an F bass, etc..

You can absolutely get Lydian sounding stuff into your song. Its used in film scoring ALL THE TIME. It brings a sense of wonderment. Probably not likely to have an entire song that is based on some kind of Lydian chord progression, but certainly you can have a section here and there which clearly sounds "lydian" in nature relative to the key center.