bummed that I can't enjoy virtual amps

[Shane Sanders]

Well, it's controversial to put it so bluntly, but to my ears the verdict is finally in and after trying just about every native virtual modeler (or listening to examples from them), it's clear to me that real amps are where it's at for mega-crunch (for clean sounds, it's another story). Both in terms of tone and feel, the real amp tells the truth better. Getting harmonics to come alive, getting muting to compress right, getting sustain, and all that--it just works better when you're pushing real air via a tube amp, imo.

So, I've got my wallet aimed at an Orange Tiny Terror amp and an Orange PPC 112 cabinet. With a pedal in front of it, this thing just gobsmacks me for brutal metal tones. Even without the pedal, it still smokes.

Anyway, my question is this:

Since I won't be playing live, is there any advantage in using a 2x12 cabinet over a 1x12 in a mic'd amp situation? I can save quite a bit of money by only going with the smaller cabinet.

What mic would you recommend for recording such an amp? SM57?

What is the best way to monitor my backing tracks while trying to get the amp isolated? Should I set the amp up in an adjacent room and play/monitor from my little studio room? How do you mic up your amp?

-S

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

The cabs are almost certainly going to sound considerably different. You may like the 1x12 and find it suits your needs or you may prefer the 2x12. Try both.

Aside from that, I'm not a giant fan of a single SM57 on a guitar amp. In and of itself it's a little too old-school for me in the sense that I've heard that sound a million times. For some reason I immedidately associate that sound with punk rock. What you can try though is the old SM57 on the grill, condensor out in the room thing. This yields a much more natural sound.

Also, I really like the BLUE "the Ball" (the one that is the color blue) as a mic on guitar cabs. It's a dynamic that handles high SPL's like you'd expect from a dynamic, but has a much flatter and extended frequency response vs. something like a SM57. Basically, it sounds more like a condensor and doesn't do that wierd thing to the mids that a SM57 does. I mention the Ball because its in the same price range as the SM57 and therefore is a legitimate alternative. Plus, it also makes a great tom mic if the drummer can avoid hitting it due to its size.

[Shane Sanders]

Thanks for the advice. I've seen those mics at GC. Will have to get down there once I have the amp in hand and see if I can take one home to test.

Are there any phasing issues involved with having two speakers going with a mic on only one of them. Surely there would be some bleed. Does it matter?

[Shane Sanders]

My ideal sound is a midpoint between Sevendust's "Rumble Fish" and Black Sabbath's "Into the Void". There's a sweet spot between those two points where brutality meets clarity. That's my holy grail.

[Shane Sanders]

For the curious, this kid is just going straight into a Tiny Terror with a modded ENGL Standard cab (2xCelestion V60's and 2xCelestion V30's on the bottom)

he says:

gain knob - 2o'clock
tone - 1o'clock
volume - 11o'clock

nothing boosted, nothing gained: played through a cab with 2xV60's and 2xVintage 30's

it's out cranked almost every solid state amp i've been in the same room as and... if you're into that sort of tone; it does an amazing Mesa Boogie MkIV tone if you use a GE-7 or similar graphic eq - reverse smile (Frown) curve - kinda like Lamb of God's - Palaces Burn album

also

Hey guys, nothing boosting the amp - it's just a Rich with an EMG-85 bucker in the bridge into the amp which is going thru a standard ENGL cab that I modded by adding two Vintage 30s at the bottom and kept the two V60's at the top.

that is all!

You can hear the throaty tone even on a crappy YouTube video. One of the most telling things about it is how the character of the amp comes out as he walks toward the amp to turn it off. No virtual situation I know of will react like that.

Here's another guy with the TT and an Orange 112 (not great playing but you can still hear the amp's charm)





He doesn't know Little Wing really well, but you can hear the tone very well:

[dry bones]

Cheaper than a Tiny Terror, and much higher build quality, is the Ampmaker SE5A. It's cheaper and better because you build it yourself, and the instructions are foolproof. I know, because I successfully built one after not having picked up a soldering iron in 20 years. It has a beautiful sound at any volume or gain level, there's no extraneous hum, hiss or crackle. I built one for exactly the same reason as you, the cabinets are very good as well. Here's the link:
http://www.ampmaker.com/index.asp

[justin3am]

I love me some Electro-Voive RE-15 on a 1x12, especially on crunchier tones. That and a pair of pencil condensors (in X-Y formation) 3-6 feet back.

Send a sine tone down to the amp on it's cleanest setting then put an Oscilliscope on your input channels so you can match the phase of the different mics as you move them around. The you can make the cab sound "bigger" by setting a tight compression to the condensors and pumping it louder than the close mic.

Just my opinion of obviously, that may not result in the sound you are looking for but I've gotten good result like that with a Vox AC15.

[Shane Sanders]

Thanks for the info guys. That hand built amp sounded quite good. Because of my procrastion-nature, I doubt I will build my own, though. I liked the sound of the modded Epiphone amps just as good and they're actually cheaper, too, once shipping from the UK to USA is factored into the deal. But they don't have the sound I'm after for this particular project.

I'll have to learn more about phase issues. I just really don't know much about recording guitars. There are so many holes in my personal knowledge.

I've actually got a spare room next to my studio, so I might figure out some way of running cables into that room permanently and then once I learn about mic placement, it's quite possible that I could get a wonderful room reverb happening for some sounds. I think it would be really cool to have an amp room dedicated to getting analog tones and verb! hehe.

My research is going to continue, but right now it's looking like an Orange Tiny Terror and an Avatar cabinet is going to fit the sound goal and budget constraints. I love how Avatar allows you to mix up the speakers and also choose the Tolex color. So I'll probably get a 2x12 with one Celestion Vintage 30 and one Celestion G12T-75 if they can both go into the same cab (in terms of wattage). Or else two G12T-75s.

[Waker]

I've just got a Sennheiser e906. That mic is everything the sm57 it not on a guitar cab. Brilliant and very easy. I'm getting really good results just using that on my L6 Vetta. I'm also using a DI box to get a clean/dry signal and just use Gearbox to compliment the miced and the DI'ed signal. I also Doubletrack/trippeltrack heavy parts a lot these days.

[Shane Sanders]

This is why I just need to go ahead and stick my head in the oven and end it all now. It's flat, it has sort of a waxy feel to it, it sucks. It's sad. And the worst part of it is it didn't sound as horrible in the room. It had a little bit of life in it at least on the palm mutes. But once recorded, it just sounds like turds on fire. (I'm aware of the hum, btw).

http://www.box.net/shared/static/7szjvb271c.mp3

[justin3am]

This is why I just need to go ahead and stick my head in the oven and end it all now. It's flat, it has sort of a waxy feel to it, it sucks. It's sad. And the worst part of it is it didn't sound as horrible in the room. It had a little bit of life in it at least on the palm mutes. But once recorded, it just sounds like turds on fire. (I'm aware of the hum, btw).

http://www.box.net/shared/static/7szjvb271c.mp3

Hmm. It's tough to tell from a compressed file but judging from the lack of bite in the high mids I'd say this could be fixed with different micing. What was the set up for this session?

[Dominus]

Fear Factory's first guitarist Dino Cazares replaced his stolen Marshall head with a Line 6 Flextone HD. You don't get much crunchier than his tone.

[Shane Sanders]

This is why I just need to go ahead and stick my head in the oven and end it all now. It's flat, it has sort of a waxy feel to it, it sucks. It's sad. And the worst part of it is it didn't sound as horrible in the room. It had a little bit of life in it at least on the palm mutes. But once recorded, it just sounds like turds on fire. (I'm aware of the hum, btw).

http://www.box.net/shared/static/7szjvb271c.mp3

Hmm. It's tough to tell from a compressed file but judging from the lack of bite in the high mids I'd say this could be fixed with different micing. What was the set up for this session?

For me this was just another way to convince myself that I'm screwed unless I spend more dough. hehe.

It's my Vox Valvtronix amp (which I like for clean stuff) using the direct out, which is supposed to 'do' cabinet modeling (LOL). The left and right channels are each a different sloppy take with the bridge on the L, middle position on the R (Active EMGs in an Epi Les Paul). I don't have a mic for guitars yet. I was just trying to see how foolish/not-foolish I was for starting a fund to save up over a grand just to record one single f'n guitar sound.

Had I attempted this with a pure software model, the results would be even worse, imo! Certainly when I'm comparing a Vox model through an actual cabinet to anthing I can get straight out of a computer, the Vox wins.

With this experiment, it's clear to me there's a proximity/volume thing going on that's fooling me. It was relatively decent sounding/feeling in the room but I know I tend to like dark amping. I did roll off a little bit of the highs, but I felt sure I was doing it in good taste. My monitors are good, my room could be a lot worse (wouldn't describe it as good, though).

!!! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhg.

[Shane Sanders]

Fear Factory's first guitarist Dino Cazares replaced his stolen Marshall head with a Line 6 Flextone HD. You don't get much crunchier than his tone.

That's encouraging to hear (I own "Obsolete" and "Demanufacture"). It's gotta be my ignorance on some level. I'm not one of those people that thinks you have to have the best, but I always end up feeling hopeless when it comes to doing metal using a computer.

I'm going to start saving my money while simultaneously trying to find a satisfactory way not to spend it by using what I have. I need to be really honest with myself and acknowledge that I've spent the better part of the last five years or so ignoring instruments in favor of composing directly into a computer. I've had fun on that path, but it's time to either do this project or off myself (just kidding). I'm sick of filters, synths, etc. I just want to play some stuff and whip out my massive collection of great exotic drum samples and make a record. And every time I try to do that, I hit this wall where I start to record something and the perfectionism monster rises up and my heart sinks. I end up giving up.

I need so badly to just practice and write for a year or so on guitar again. I worry that I am not patient enough to be any good and I have always had a horrible technical memory. So if I don't record something quick, it's gone. I can't think of a single piece of music I've written where I didn't compromise on some level. I get so sick of myself, my me-ness, the lame inability to have it feel effortless, etc. I've become this mood driven piece of crap that can't seem to even get a riff recorded right.

[justin3am]

This is why I just need to go ahead and stick my head in the oven and end it all now. It's flat, it has sort of a waxy feel to it, it sucks. It's sad. And the worst part of it is it didn't sound as horrible in the room. It had a little bit of life in it at least on the palm mutes. But once recorded, it just sounds like turds on fire. (I'm aware of the hum, btw).

http://www.box.net/shared/static/7szjvb271c.mp3

Hmm. It's tough to tell from a compressed file but judging from the lack of bite in the high mids I'd say this could be fixed with different micing. What was the set up for this session?

For me this was just another way to convince myself that I'm screwed unless I spend more dough. hehe.

It's my Vox Valvtronix amp (which I like for clean stuff) using the direct out, which is supposed to 'do' cabinet modeling (LOL). The left and right channels are each a different sloppy take with the bridge on the L, middle position on the R (Active EMGs in an Epi Les Paul). I don't have a mic for guitars yet. I was just trying to see how foolish/not-foolish I was for starting a fund to save up over a grand just to record one single f'n guitar sound.

Had I attempted this with a pure software model, the results would be even worse, imo! Certainly when I'm comparing a Vox model through an actual cabinet to anthing I can get straight out of a computer, the Vox wins.

With this experiment, it's clear to me there's a proximity/volume thing going on that's fooling me. It was relatively decent sounding/feeling in the room but I know I tend to like dark amping. I did roll off a little bit of the highs, but I felt sure I was doing it in good taste. My monitors are good, my room could be a lot worse (wouldn't describe it as good, though).

!!! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhg.

Ahh! If the dilema is to spend or not to spend I'm always the little devil on your left saying "spend spend spend" while poking you with a pitch fork. I'm looking forward to hearing what you get out of the new rig. Treat your self to a Beta 57 as well and mic the cab off-axis from behind to get that dark-close sound without having to rolling off the highs. Keep the bite lose the bright.

Cheers.