Modes inquiry

[musikjock]

In light of becoming more interested in music theory, I decided to analyze some of my songs and melodies from way back when. a recent study has me baffled however. Among a couple other chords, the song contains:

Am Gmaj Dm Fmaj Cmaj Emaj

Why can I not find a mode that contains these? I know E is the oddball out but is this actually considered an accidental? It seems I hear it so much and sounds very consonant. Sorry if this is a stupid question I am still new to this.

[ckatrun411]

Modes would represent " forms " for lack of a better word, of scales. Those are all chords...

scales and chords are two different things. Am, is an A minor chord, Gmaj, is a G major chord.


Least to say, modes have to do with scales. You can not find chords in scales, chords are formed buy combining notes together... in Triads, at the most basic level.
anyways, this is all very confusing. I suggest reading... Music theory made easy, by David Harp.

[paveloso]

Hi! I'll try to help here.

Modes are actually scales, not chord progressions. You could play the same chord, but play a different scale, and you would be in two different modes.

For example, play a C major scale over a Dmin chord, and you get a Dorian sound. However, play the same scale over a C maj triad and you get pure ionian (the major scale).

To me, your progression is in the key of C major, "borrowing" the major third (E maj), either to modulate to a new key (would resolve nicely to A maj), or as a temporary modulation (which would resolve nicely to F, staying in the key of C).

Hope that helps. Maybe other people have different views, but there are my two cents.

[contrast]

Assuming the song is in A minor, a major V chord is extremely common in minor keys and helps to reinforce the tonic and separate the minor key from it's relative major.

You might be familiar with the "ascending/descending" melodic minor scale with the raised 6th and 7th when going upward but the same as natural minor going down. You don't really see it used that way much in modern times, but more generally, you can think of a minor scale as having variable 6th and 7th degrees.

[nuffink]

In light of becoming more interested in music theory, I decided to analyze some of my songs and melodies from way back when. a recent study has me baffled however. Among a couple other chords, the song contains:

Am Gmaj Dm Fmaj Cmaj Emaj

Why can I not find a mode that contains these? I know E is the oddball out but is this actually considered an accidental? It seems I hear it so much and sounds very consonant. Sorry if this is a stupid question I am still new to this.

The chords, cumulatively, contain the notes A,B,C,D,E,F,G,G#. If you're looking for a mode to cover them all it's a mode of an 8 note scale. The one that fits the bill is the Major Bebop or Altered Mixolydian.

It's modes are known variously as

Blues scale II
Spanish Phrygian
Magen Abot: Jewish
Maqam Nahawand/Farahfaz/Raga Suha (Suha Kanada)/Gregorian nr.4 /Utility Minor



Nah, just pulling your plonker. I'd treat the G# as an accidental if I were you.

[Jafo]

In light of becoming more interested in music theory, I decided to analyze some of my songs and melodies from way back when. a recent study has me baffled however. Among a couple other chords, the song contains:

Am Gmaj Dm Fmaj Cmaj Emaj

Why can I not find a mode that contains these? I know E is the oddball out but is this actually considered an accidental? It seems I hear it so much and sounds very consonant. Sorry if this is a stupid question I am still new to this.

Amin with a V7. A melodic minor.

[musikjock]

The chords, cumulatively, contain the notes A,B,C,D,E,F,G,G#. If you're looking for a mode to cover them all it's a mode of an 8 note scale. The one that fits the bill is the Major Bebop or Altered Mixolydian.

.

My apologies to the first few posters before nuffink, I don't think I explained myself well enough. I am aware that modes are scales, but if you take that a step further each mode will create a set of chords with its available inventory. If I would've been smart enough to break it down even further as nuffink did, I would've realized how stupid of a question this is.

Sorry these things are not yet inherent to me. Thanks for both answering my question and making me feel like an idiot!

Jafo- melodic minor isn't ringing a bell at the moment..but you may be on to something

[musikjock]

Assuming the song is in A minor, a major V chord is extremely common in minor keys and helps to reinforce the tonic and separate the minor key from it's relative major.
.

thanks this is insightful too.

[jancivil]

In light of becoming more interested in music theory, I decided to analyze some of my songs and melodies from way back when. a recent study has me baffled however. Among a couple other chords, the song contains:

Am Gmaj Dm Fmaj Cmaj Emaj

Why can I not find a mode that contains these? I know E is the oddball out but is this actually considered an accidental? It seems I hear it so much and sounds very consonant. Sorry if this is a stupid question I am still new to this.

the third of E is major, the g#, which is foreign to what otherwise contains only c major scale tones. E minor is the 'naturally' occurring chord on that root, in this 'key'.

it's doubtful, to me, that your given context would require you to have one overarching scale ('mode') to cover it; your sharpened 'g' is probably going to clash with a G chord of any quality, save an altered or extended chord (eg., G7 b9), for instance. so, it's probably either/or, on 'which g'

in this example, I'd guess that E maj leads to A min. it's called a functional harmony in minor, A minor being the relative minor (same key sig) as C maj. the natural minor (aka 'aeolian' mode) contains G natural. 'E' likes 'A', it's called dominant function to tonic; the g# 'leads' to the a. which is why it doesn't sound jarring to you.

if you one day encounter a scenario where you need one mode to consistently cover your bases, you simply create an artificial scale, with your example:

a b c d e f g g#;

which can work temporarily in your given progression, if C does in fact precede E. If you want to 'run scales', a la a jazzer, and give the 'flavor' implied by your given choices, that's probably your maneuver.

[jancivil]

In light of becoming more interested in music theory, I decided to analyze some of my songs and melodies from way back when. a recent study has me baffled however. Among a couple other chords, the song contains:

Am Gmaj Dm Fmaj Cmaj Emaj

Why can I not find a mode that contains these? I know E is the oddball out but is this actually considered an accidental? It seems I hear it so much and sounds very consonant. Sorry if this is a stupid question I am still new to this.

Amin with a V7. A melodic minor.

no. melodic minor on tonic a =

a b c d e f# g#

there's no f# in the example; A melodic minor doesn't really work. it clashes completely with D min and F maj.

harmonic minor on tonic a =

a b c d e f g#

now, there is nothing in the given set of chords (I'm assuming it's a progression) that indicates the need for this mode. Unless the F maj goes directly (and consistently) to E. if it's a progression I'm looking at, it's C that precedes E, and your harmonic minor licks won't wash.

it's A natural minor with an accidental g# where it occurs in the harmony.

[StudioDave]

melodic minor on tonic a =

a b c d e f# g#

there's no f# in the example; A melodic minor doesn't really work. it clashes completely with D min and F maj.

A note to your example: The melodic minor is unique in part because its sixth and seventh degrees are raised when ascending, lowered when descending. The complete spelling for your example is then:

a b c d e f# g# a g f e d c b a

Weirdly, the melodic minor is actually a rich source of variable harmonies for minor scales. In the harmonization for your example the V and VI chords can be either minor or major, the VII may be a major or diminished chord, and the III can be either major or augmented.

IMO you were correct in your evaluation of the original problem, i.e. that the solution is the key of Am with a major chord at V. Deriving from the A melodic minor accommodates the G# in the V and the F and G naturals in the other chords.

[musikjock]

in this example, I'd guess that E maj leads to A min. it's called a functional harmony in minor, A minor being the relative minor (same key sig) as C maj. the natural minor (aka 'aeolian' mode) contains G natural. 'E' likes 'A', it's called dominant function to tonic; the g# 'leads' to the a. which is why it doesn't sound jarring to you.

if you one day encounter a scenario where you need one mode to consistently cover your bases, you simply create an artificial scale, with your example:

a b c d e f g g#;

which can work temporarily in your given progression, if C does in fact precede E. If you want to 'run scales', a la a jazzer, and give the 'flavor' implied by your given choices, that's probably your maneuver.

you are spot on. this thread alone has taught me a great deal. for fun, I will lay out the progression to show how both Emaj precedes Amin as well as C preceding E:

my apologies, still not 100% comfortable writing the scale degrees

(repeat twice)
Verse 3/4: Amin Gmaj Amin Dmin Fmaj Emaj Fmaj Emaj (each chord receives 2 bars)

Chorus 3/4: Fmaj(4 bars) Cmaj (2 bars) Emaj (2bars)

and then of course the Emaj brilliantly leads back into the verse

Thanks again to everybody offering their 2 cents

[jancivil]

melodic minor on tonic a =

a b c d e f# g#

there's no f# in the example; A melodic minor doesn't really work. it clashes completely with D min and F maj.

A note to your example: The melodic minor is unique in part because its sixth and seventh degrees are raised when ascending, lowered when descending. The complete spelling for your example is then:

a b c d e f# g# a g f e d c b a

Weirdly, the melodic minor is actually a rich source of variable harmonies for minor scales. In the harmonization for your example the V and VI chords can be either minor or major, the VII may be a major or diminished chord, and the III can be either major or augmented.

IMO you were correct in your evaluation of the original problem, i.e. that the solution is the key of Am with a major chord at V. Deriving from the A melodic minor accommodates the G# in the V and the F and G naturals in the other chords.

{well, if the f#s are passing during the turnaround, 'V', you're correct, of course; in some contexts the ear may be so acclimated to the f natural, then 'not so much', in which case it's like a spanish or harmonic minor feel }

yes, in baroque and then classical period usage, you see the ascending/descending form almost exclusively

the progression may be in that style or not, I can't tell from just the symbols; however in modern jazz usage, 'melodic minor' does refer to what you call the ascending form, about as strictly as the earlier usage refers to the full form.

I omitted the descending to avoid too much information all at once.

to expand on your excellent point, modalizing the ascending melodic minor gives some pretty exotic 'modern'-sounding combinations - IE., take the form given:

a b c d e f# g#

over say a c maj7

I am wondering, it's been awhile since I was immersed in classical, did the 'full' form exist much before JS Bach? which is where you really begin to see it, at any rate.


I'm off topic just for the heckuv it, since the orig poster already figga'd it out

[jancivil]

in this example, I'd guess that E maj leads to A min. it's called a functional harmony in minor, A minor being the relative minor (same key sig) as C maj. the natural minor (aka 'aeolian' mode) contains G natural. 'E' likes 'A', it's called dominant function to tonic; the g# 'leads' to the a. which is why it doesn't sound jarring to you.

if you one day encounter a scenario where you need one mode to consistently cover your bases, you simply create an artificial scale, with your example:

a b c d e f g g#;

which can work temporarily in your given progression, if C does in fact precede E. If you want to 'run scales', a la a jazzer, and give the 'flavor' implied by your given choices, that's probably your maneuver.

you are spot on. this thread alone has taught me a great deal. for fun, I will lay out the progression to show how both Emaj precedes Amin as well as C preceding E:

my apologies, still not 100% comfortable writing the scale degrees

(repeat twice)
Verse 3/4: Amin Gmaj Amin Dmin Fmaj Emaj Fmaj Emaj (each chord receives 2 bars)

Chorus 3/4: Fmaj(4 bars) Cmaj (2 bars) Emaj (2bars)

and then of course the Emaj brilliantly leads back into the verse

Thanks again to everybody offering their 2 cents

a ha! with the F and E, back and forth action, it is more of a harmonic min or spanish sound, isn't it?

I don't see f# as a best choice in this environment; if you have i - V - i (a min., E, a min.) you might have the baroque sound (a 'turn') on that turnaround: a g# f# g# a;

here I imagine f natural coloring the E chord (as an *appoggiatura* device), in a spanish mode

a modern flamenco guitarist might use both fs in quick passages, chromatically, in such a progression, also...

[StudioDave]

I am wondering, it's been awhile since I was immersed in classical, did the 'full' form exist much before JS Bach? which is where you really begin to see it, at any rate.

Good question.

Given its utility for modulations, I'd guess that its usage expanded with the broader acceptance of equal temperament, which of course really takes off in the Baroque period.

But I'm guessing.