Real analog vs DSP?

[JimmiG]

Hi all! Relying almost entirely on soft-synths, I've been lusting for a high-end hardware synth for some time.

With prices ranging from $1000 to over $3000, it's no small investment. This makes it feel very important to collect all the information I can before deciding which one to buy, or if it simply isn't worth it at all..

I was thinking about the difference between DSP-powered and "real analog".. and whether I should get something like a Prophet 08, Evolver or even a Moog, or get a hardware DSP-powered instrument like the Virus, Nord, Radias, Ion, Supernova II etc...

Everyone seems to have a different opinion about real analog vs virtual analog. Some say VA sounds just as good or even better (because they have more effects, oscillators, voices etc,) while others claim that nothing can touch the sound of real analog osc's and filters, even if that means paying a premium and usually getting less features, fewer voices and so on. These conflicting opinions seem to be held even among music professionals and magazine writers, making it impossible to find the truth.

Also, does analog in itself really guarantee great sound? Just like there are great, fat and warm sounding plugins, as well as thin-sounding and bland plugins, I'd expect the quality between different analog synths to vary.

How are the very different price points explained? The monophonic minimoog voyager is much more expensive than the 8-voice Prophet 08.. Do you only pay for the "Moog" logo and the cred it brings, or are there some real sound quality differences here? Even the 16-voice A6 Andromeda can be had for about the same price as a voyager. I read that for the A6, they tried to copy the Moog filters and osc's, and then put them on tiny integrated circuits instead of using real analog circuits..supposedly, this creates a thinner sound. Do all modern analogues use this technique?

[Lagrange]

To me its like comparing..



I started recording analog for years. When I finally went digital, I had to relearn everything. So to me other than the premise.. You cant compare the 2..

L

[JimmiG]

So, you're saying that companies who try to produce DSP-powered and softsynth "emulations" of analog synths have completely failed at their task, and the difference between their reproductions and the originals is like night and day, apples and oranges?

Where can this significant difference be heard? Some developers of analog emulations have soundfiles comparing their synth with the original, and they sometimes sound very close. Is the difference only heard when pushing the synth to the extreme by playing very high/low notes, using lots of resonance, or other extreme settings?

What about my other qeustions, about the price difference between a monophonic Moog and the 8-voice Prophet 08, and any sound quality difference between the more expensive monosynths and cheaper, polyphonic analogue synths?

[Lagrange]

Well actally if you look closely those are Opples and Aranges .. So not 100% different but still not the same.

Yea the differences for me are recording to tape, mixing, compressing and equing an analog signal and other quaint digital conversion processes going on inside the circuits..

And how I miss the shit I could get away with on analog equipment I dunno just different to me somehow..

L

[prophet08]

So, you're saying that companies who try to produce DSP-powered and softsynth "emulations" of analog synths have completely failed at their task, and the difference between their reproductions and the originals is like night and day, apples and oranges?

Where can this significant difference be heard? Some developers of analog emulations have soundfiles comparing their synth with the original, and they sometimes sound very close. Is the difference only heard when pushing the synth to the extreme by playing very high/low notes, using lots of resonance, or other extreme settings?

What about my other qeustions, about the price difference between a monophonic Moog and the 8-voice Prophet 08, and any sound quality difference between the more expensive monosynths and cheaper, polyphonic analogue synths?

I think emulations of analog synths are very succesful nowadays, although analog is totally unique itself IMO. For instance I own a Prophet 08, and its sound is amazing once you start to tweak and discover its depth, and for me it is much better than other analogs without considering marketing/price issues, but of course this is purely a subjective issue. Having virtual analog synths like Virus TI, and Nord G2 I also like them very much, they are simply unique as well!

I think it's always better to have a kind of hybrid equipment setup so that your productions will feature best of both analog and digitals. Analogs are generally much simple but powerful enough!, whereas digitals are much versatile, sophisticated, and flexible that it is not so easy to prefer only one without considering other.. Long subject indeed..

[contrast]

Do you only pay for the "Moog" logo and the cred it brings, or are there some real sound quality differences here?

Without any comment on the quality of their gear, you do pay a premium for all of it.

These conflicting opinions seem to be held even among music professionals and magazine writers, making it impossible to find the truth.

As far as this goes, there is no "truth" because it's matter of opinion. There are high-quality options from an objective standpoint in software and hardware and virtual and real analog. The only "truth" is that they all sound a bit different, both because of the methods they use to make sound and how the interface encourages you to work with the machine. Better or worse is entirely down to your personal preference.

[living sounds]

Any decent analog synth sounds much better than all the VAs I've heard. But you'll have to try and listen for yourself.

[hifiboom]

as prophet08 said, I think both worlds complement each other quite well.

Digital VA synths have almost countless advantages over analog synths.
-cheaper
-more voices
-flexibility only limited by the cpu ressources available...
-multiple instances
-easy preset handling
-saving with project
-....

Real analogs are mostly quite limited for their price you pay for them,
the prophet 08 and the andromeda are examples for better value price as they are polyphonic, whereas a minimoog with one voice maybe quite limited for its price.

In my opinion the analogs are worth the price, mainly because they sound better with critical settings.
-the filters sound ultra-smooth,
-you can play lowest notes and use the filter to create punchy sub-bases which sometimes seem impossible to reach with virtual stuff.
-high notes never suffer from aliasing or other side effects
-aliasing free in every area: sync sounds, ringmodulation, filters
-mostly fresher/richer top end and less "static" sound
-analog resonance mostly sounds more musical than a digital "prefect" feedback chain. especially pads and longer tailed sounds like filter sweeps and drones may sound better and "warmer".


At the end it depends on the artist and what music you are doing. You have to find your own style.

I know artists that completly stopped working with VAs and virtual synths and went back doing almost everything on analog gear.

The rule is: its not important what gear you are using, more important is if you are satisfied with your results.

For me an analog is worth the money even the expensive ones.

Not to forget that analogs more like a are real gear, not just a software running on a dsp chip inside a box.

[tomg]

Everyone seems to have a different opinion about real analog vs virtual analog. Some say VA sounds just as good or even better (because they have more effects, oscillators, voices etc,) while others claim that nothing can touch the sound of real analog osc's and filters, even if that means paying a premium and usually getting less features, fewer voices and so on. These conflicting opinions seem to be held even among music professionals and magazine writers, making it impossible to find the truth.

I am building a new inexpensive analog synth. There are some videos with 32K audio recorded through my laptops mic input here. Once you record analog to digital you loose some of the flavor even more so at 32K but you should still be able to tell that the filter and oscillators kick ass.

http://www.ele4music.com/user/
.

[deastman]

Some good advice has been offered so far, and I don't have much to add. The only point I'd like to make is that software becomes obsolete much faster than hardware. All my software- Native Instruments Komplete, Wusikstation, Sonar, etc. requires feeding at least once a year with an infusion of cash to stay up to date with the latest version. Hardware, on the other hand, is more or less static: once you buy something, you own it. Updating Windows or OSX will not stop your hardware synths from playing.

[fac]

Some good advice has been offered so far, and I don't have much to add. The only point I'd like to make is that software becomes obsolete much faster than hardware. All my software- Native Instruments Komplete, Wusikstation, Sonar, etc. requires feeding at least once a year with an infusion of cash to stay up to date with the latest version. Hardware, on the other hand, is more or less static: once you buy something, you own it. Updating Windows or OSX will not stop your hardware synths from playing.

To complement what deastman said, analog hardware holds its value much better than software. Hell, some software you can't even resell! For example, the price of a Minimoog has remained static for years and is not likely to change. This means that if you buy one and sell it later, you will lose very little, maybe even win some. Once I bought a Moog Prodigy for $180. It was in good shape, only missing one key. After a couple years, I sold it for $450, without having fixed it or anything. With software that's simply impossible. How much do you think a Wusikstation 2 license is worth now?

Yes, software is cheaper, but in the long run your "studio" is worth three and a half peanuts.

And, if you keep an eye on the classifieds, you may get lucky and find a good hardware piece for the price of a softsynth. Besides the Prodigy, I've bought a Korg Wavestation SR for $150 (later sold for $400), a Korg MS2000R for $100 (still have it), a Fender Rhodes for $300 (later sold for $400), etc.

[deastman]

And, if you keep an eye on the classifieds, you may get lucky and find a good hardware piece for the price of a softsynth. Besides the Prodigy, I've bought a Korg Wavestation SR for $150 (later sold for $400), a Korg MS2000R for $100 (still have it), a Fender Rhodes for $300 (later sold for $400), etc.

Absolutely. I bought my Andromeda for $1400! You can find good deals if you are persistent and patient. It also helps if you are open to the various deals which come your way, rather than deciding up front that you only want a Virus TI (for example), and nothing else will do. Speaking of the Virus, I took a look and was blown away by how expensive they are! I bought my Virus A brand new when they first came out, and I'm pretty sure I only spent around $700. The newer ones do a lot more, but still...

[Shy]

You got an MS2000R for $100? Geez, where do you find such deals?

[fac]

You got an MS2000R for $100? Geez, where do you find such deals?

You have to keep an eye on the classifieds all the time. I've got very lucky sometimes. 2nd hand prices in Mexico are usually much higher than on ebay. For example, MS2000R's go for around $400. The one I got was from a guy with a pro studio who bought it and never used it. It came without the manual but I didn't care because I already had another MS2000R which I bought new when they came out (cost me around $700 at that time!). So basically, I got even: two MS2000R's for $800 now I can sell either one for $400 without any remorse.

[himalaya]

Everyone seems to have a different opinion about real analog vs virtual analog.

This is it.
Why, then, listen to everyone ?
Try to audition the synth you are interested in yourself. Do you like the sound? But others say it's 'thin' sounding ? Tell them politely to go away.
If you like it than it's good ( for you which is what matters). It's all subjective in the end.
To give you an example....majority of musos used to desire the sound of the Minimoog back in the sevenites ( still do BTW), but there was one very successful musician who just didn't like the sound of the Minimoog, preferring the sound of the Arp synths, since these offered highpass filters in addition to low pass, so he could sculpt the sound in more ways than the Minimoog allowed (with its Lowpass filter only). The musician in question is Vangelis. One may not like his music, but there is no denying his skill and knowledge....

Another example. In the eighties people used to moan that FM wasn't good at making lush pads and analog style bass sounds. Now we have a bunch of software FM synths all doing lush FM pads an analog styles basses with style!


My own criteria when choosing an analog or VA hardware synth, after I'm happy with the basic sound, is this:
How easy and quick is it to coax sounds from it. Meaning, how many controls are there right on the surface and not burried deep in menus.
With this in mind, I'd be looking at Clavia's Nord Lead 3, which is unfortunately discontinued, but offers the best user interface on a synth there is. You instantly know what the patch is doing thanks to all those fab LEDs around each knob. Sublime. This synth, btw, should be one of the best ones to learn synthesis on too, since, as I have mentioned, you call up a patch and see instantly how it is done.

At the end of the day, nobody will tell you when listening to your music "the music is great but you did it on the XYZ synth which has thin sounding oscillators, and that PWM I'm hearing isn't meaty enough, oh and the filter right there at 3'00 minutes in your tune, isn't self oscillating....not sure if I like your track anymore..."


Choose the sound, than the user interafce, than see if it has the right collection of features for your needs and make some beautiful music !