I'm still having this old JVC double tapedeck standing around, that's having two Dobly NR modes: B and C. I know that tape recorders can be used as soft limiter or better said saturation tool to warm up pure digital recordings (thanks to the internal compressor). And I can't stop my fingers itching to simply do that. But before I can do that, have some questions.
First of all, since the tape is not in it's best condition anymore to abuse as "recorder", I hoped to simply use it as on-the-fly reamping device. Meaning... I connect the output of my recording card ot the input of the tape, setup the tape deck how I want it to, then rerecord it back into my PC - is this possible? Problem is, if I'd give this one away for reparing, I'm sure it can't be fixed anymore, which happened to me three times already at several different repairing houses, all with stupid excuses and I could throw the unit into the trash in the end. I grew a little aversion of that.
Then I'm not really sure how this works with the NR modes. Okay, it's for noise reduction, but what mode does actually what? Does it influence the sound if I drive the signal into the "limiter"?
I'd love to get some advice from one of our tape experts in here, what to do, what to prevent, etc. Of course it's no SSL pult or an 20 year old bandmachine, but hey... All is permitted that pleases - especially if it can upvalue the sound in certain ways.
As usual, thanks in advance.
Tape Decks, Dolby NR and re-recording the analog way
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- KVRAF
- 14740 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
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- Rad Grandad
- 38041 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine
so you want to run your signal through an old double cassette without recording it? Those double decks weren't always as good as single decks, but those issues would be in the heads likely, so if you're not recording it to tape wont matter. I think you would have better results recording to tape and playing back. Laugh if you will, but if I had an old stereo vcr (I actually have two) I'd set that for a slow speed and use that...
The highest form of knowledge is empathy, for it requires us to suspend our egos and live in another's world. It requires profound, purpose‐larger‐than‐the‐self kind of understanding.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14740 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Well basically I want to use it as saturation device. And for that I can use it on the fly, no? Meaning, putting the tape only in record mode, drive the signal on the input to a certain level, and then record the output.
Unless I misunderstood the concept of old tape "machines".
Unless I misunderstood the concept of old tape "machines".
Last edited by Compyfox on Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14740 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
I guess only a Guru like Kingston can help out here. Maybe if we scream loud enough, he'll notice us? Heh.
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- KVRist
- 82 posts since 14 Jun, 2002 from Montreal Canada
If you're looking to get a "tape saturation" sound this won't work.Compyfox wrote:Well basically I want to use it as saturation device. And for that I can use it on the fly, no? Meaning, putting the tape only in record mode, drive the signal on the input to a certain level, and then record the output.
Unless I misunderstood the concept of old tape "machines".
All you'll be doing is using your tape machine as a kind of pre-amp.
To get a tape saturation sound you'd actually need to have the signal recorded onto tape and then to pick up the output from the playback head.
I don't know the machine in question but to do this in real time you'd need a machine with 3 heads,
1- the erase head,
2- a sync head (used when you record and want to monitor what you're recording in real time. Basically the signal going in is exactly the signal coming out) and
3- a repro head (used only at mixdown as it's signal out will be delayed by a certain amount of time depending on the running speed of the tape deck)
On multitrack analog machines there are these 3 heads and to get tape saturation you need to be able to pick up the return signal from the repro head.
If I was wanting to do this I'd try to find a multitrack analog machine, have the tape running and recording continuously and pick up the return signal from the repro head. If the tape speed is 15 inches per second and the repro head is 1 inch to the right of the sync head they'll be a delay of 1/15 of a second
(66 ms)
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- KVRAF
- 6323 posts since 30 Dec, 2004 from London uk
Its possible to do it non realtime. Just record the tracks you want to tape, then play them back and record it on the PC. Not much fun but it would work.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14740 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Hm... so instead of getting the "tape sound", I only get the "limiter" sound that way, is that correct? Meaning... input can be driven into the "limiting" (therefore softclipping, as we speak analog here), and I can easily record the output. Therefore I also get some sort of "saturation".aucoton wrote:If you're looking to get a "tape saturation" sound this won't work.
All you'll be doing is using your tape machine as a kind of pre-amp.
Old tape machines... if I'd be that lucky to get one. They cost a fortune now. ANd I had a Forstex 422 Multitrack once, but I had to give it back and now my friend sold it. Bad outta luck I'd say.
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- Banned
- 1841 posts since 4 Aug, 2004 from just right here
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14740 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
The more I try to dig into this, the more questions are coming up.
For example:
What does Dolby B do? What does Dolby C do?
Isn't any tape machine/deck basically a "compressor/softlimiter" if used "on the fly"? (at least Bob Katz wrote that in his book)
Why using old VCR Tapes (they cut a lot of the highend! At least IMO)?
Do I really need to record first, then rerecord it into the PC?
Beat Germany recently released a "best of" magazine (early December), and they stated that no matter what unit you have (and may it even be an old Behringer Mixer), if you go the "analog way" at least once, you kill the cycle of having a pure digital sound.
I just wanna crack the surface with the possibilities I have - and that's this old tape unit.
For example:
What does Dolby B do? What does Dolby C do?
Isn't any tape machine/deck basically a "compressor/softlimiter" if used "on the fly"? (at least Bob Katz wrote that in his book)
Why using old VCR Tapes (they cut a lot of the highend! At least IMO)?
Do I really need to record first, then rerecord it into the PC?
Beat Germany recently released a "best of" magazine (early December), and they stated that no matter what unit you have (and may it even be an old Behringer Mixer), if you go the "analog way" at least once, you kill the cycle of having a pure digital sound.
I just wanna crack the surface with the possibilities I have - and that's this old tape unit.
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- Banned
- 338 posts since 4 Dec, 2007
DOlby B and C were noise reduction processes that essentially were preemphasis type eq that, when used at high speed, could keep some tape hiss down.
You can't achieve what you want with a simple cassette deck, except by recording the tracks then re-recording back to digital, running through 2 more conversions and losing tons of fidelity in the cassette tape.
If you truly want to do this, I recommend looking for a decent used 2 track 1/4" or 1/2" machine. You can get them for a few hundred bucks, and you can then do what is called a pass through across the tape and saturate it. You will need to advance the tape from time to time, as it will degrade as you pass signal on it.
You can't achieve what you want with a simple cassette deck, except by recording the tracks then re-recording back to digital, running through 2 more conversions and losing tons of fidelity in the cassette tape.
If you truly want to do this, I recommend looking for a decent used 2 track 1/4" or 1/2" machine. You can get them for a few hundred bucks, and you can then do what is called a pass through across the tape and saturate it. You will need to advance the tape from time to time, as it will degrade as you pass signal on it.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14740 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Yeah but this is "tape saturation" - recording. What about the internal (soft)limiter that should work "on the fly"?
I mean, doesn't matter if I run it through a mixer or an old VCR and then record the output again, it's still run through an analog device. And I'm really aiming for the limiter in there - for roughing things up.
A tape machine at a later state is still an option, but I'd rather use what I already "have".
I mean, doesn't matter if I run it through a mixer or an old VCR and then record the output again, it's still run through an analog device. And I'm really aiming for the limiter in there - for roughing things up.
A tape machine at a later state is still an option, but I'd rather use what I already "have".
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- KVRAF
- 6323 posts since 30 Dec, 2004 from London uk
Why all the debate? Just try it - if you like it, great. If not, nothing lost 
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14740 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Trying is one thing, understanding is another (and more important IMO).
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- KVRist
- 357 posts since 24 Jul, 2005 from Toronto ON
Cassette is just too plain awful to be used in the recording/mastering process, in my opinion. Worth experimenting with, but I believe the noise, distortion and flutter will outweigh any positive benefits you get from it (unless you're deliberately aiming for lo-fi).
The Dolby process is only applied to and from the tape; if you're just running a signal through the deck (E to E), the signal doesn't touch the Dolby circuitry.
The best device for adding tape effects is a good 3-head two-track 1/4" open reel deck running at 7.5 or 15 ips. This gives you the tape saturation effect, but the audio is still at pro quality.
Good two-track open-reel recorders used to cost between $1000 and $3000 new, but can now be bought for quite cheap. 17 years ago I bought a Revox B77 for $2000 (and sold it for $1500 5 years later); this fall I bought an OTARI MX5050 from ebay for $225 (including shipping!).
With a 3-head deck you can produce a tape-saturation in real-time in one pass. 1) Route your DAW stereo track out to the recorder in, route the recorder out back to the DAW to record on a new track.
2) Load up a blank tape, start it in record, play from the DAW to set levels, switch the recorder to monitor off the play head, and check return level to the DAW.
3) Start the record deck in record again, relocate the DAW to the start and start it playing and recording the deck output to a new stereo track.
When you're done, you will have a new tape-affected track that is in sync with the original track, but offset by the play-delay of the deck, which you can easily realign by hand. Now you have the option of mixing the original plus the "taped" track however you want. For example you can bring most of the bass and low mids from the tape track for a fatter, punchier bottom, while keeping the crisp digital highs . or vice versa if you want a bit of tape "smear" on the highs.
I used to repair tape decks, mostly pro ones, and I agree that it's hard nowadays to find people who can repair them. So you'll have to find a tape specialist shop, or an old fart like me who would take it on. Or maybe tackle it yourself; cassette decks aren't that hard to work with. The main issue will be head azimuth, I bet.
Well, you're running "analog" every time you go from D to A and back again, whether or not there's another device in the chain. The "limiting" from a tape deck IS from the tape saturation, unless the tape deck actually has a built-in limiter; most don't. So there's not much point in running through a tape deck if you're not going to tape.Compyfox wrote:...What about the internal (soft)limiter that should work "on the fly"?
I mean, doesn't matter if I run it through a mixer or an old VCR and then record the output again, it's still run through an analog device. And I'm really aiming for the limiter in there - for roughing things up.
A tape machine at a later state is still an option, but I'd rather use what I already "have".
The Dolby process is only applied to and from the tape; if you're just running a signal through the deck (E to E), the signal doesn't touch the Dolby circuitry.
The best device for adding tape effects is a good 3-head two-track 1/4" open reel deck running at 7.5 or 15 ips. This gives you the tape saturation effect, but the audio is still at pro quality.
Good two-track open-reel recorders used to cost between $1000 and $3000 new, but can now be bought for quite cheap. 17 years ago I bought a Revox B77 for $2000 (and sold it for $1500 5 years later); this fall I bought an OTARI MX5050 from ebay for $225 (including shipping!).
With a 3-head deck you can produce a tape-saturation in real-time in one pass. 1) Route your DAW stereo track out to the recorder in, route the recorder out back to the DAW to record on a new track.
2) Load up a blank tape, start it in record, play from the DAW to set levels, switch the recorder to monitor off the play head, and check return level to the DAW.
3) Start the record deck in record again, relocate the DAW to the start and start it playing and recording the deck output to a new stereo track.
When you're done, you will have a new tape-affected track that is in sync with the original track, but offset by the play-delay of the deck, which you can easily realign by hand. Now you have the option of mixing the original plus the "taped" track however you want. For example you can bring most of the bass and low mids from the tape track for a fatter, punchier bottom, while keeping the crisp digital highs . or vice versa if you want a bit of tape "smear" on the highs.
I used to repair tape decks, mostly pro ones, and I agree that it's hard nowadays to find people who can repair them. So you'll have to find a tape specialist shop, or an old fart like me who would take it on. Or maybe tackle it yourself; cassette decks aren't that hard to work with. The main issue will be head azimuth, I bet.
I have a cunning plan ...