time signatures

[VitaminD]

To be perfectly upfront.. I never quite got the hang of time signatures... I understand simple time sigs (2/4 3/4 4/4 etc) and for so long, I've stuck with 4/4 so learning this part of music theory never really mattered to me.

However, when it comes to others (for instance 3/5) what does it mean? Can a note really be divided into 5ths, 6ths, or 7ths? I notice in FL Studio, one can actually play in 3/5 or 2/9 if they so please..

I'm asking for the delay calc I'm making.. Does the denominator alter the value for a delay amount or does the numerator only matter? therefore, 3/4 = 3/5 = 3/6 = 3/7 = 3/8 in this case?

[jancivil]

is that right about FL studio?

look at time: (forget abut the convention of time signatures in music), like a zoom in or out.

how far in or out does it go? it's practically infinite.

slow it down by some huge factor. how many 'beats', ticks can you fit? why would there be a necessary limit?

"3/5" sig is the same as saying that, in say 4/4 (a whole note duration), you have five in the time of that four, and you've drawn a bar line after three of these.

you follow?

damn, I want FL studio now if that's true, that ROCKS!

I don't like 'pattern-based' sequencers, it's not how my mind works in music, but I could work with that.

[jancivil]

again, to make sure it's clear, YES, the denominator changes the time, the convention you start with is a whole note, and the denominator is a division of that.

/5 is 5 equal divisions of a whole note.

try chanting 'right in front of me' evenly in the time of a whole note (click track set to emphasize where ONE is) that's your 'fifth note'

[duncanparsons]

OK just had a look at how FL is doing this, and really, it's very odd.

Time signatures, by convention, use powers of two for the 'denominator', since note values are divided by two to get to the next one smaller - minim->crotchet->quaver->semi-quaver (or half->quarter->eighth->sixteenth), giving denominator values of 2,4,8,16 there.
The 'numerator' (it's not actually a fraction, but for convenience we'll use that terminology) tell you how many of those you have.
eq 3/4 tells you that you have 3 quarter notes in a bar. 7/8 tells you that you have 7 eighth notes in a bar. 13/16 tells you that it's prog and you better be clear what your doing, or there'll be trouble!

FL's way of doing it is frankly confusing.
Their 'Beat' is for working out if you are playing straight, tripletted or some other division of a quarter not, essentially; and their 'Bar' tells you how many of those make up a bar.
If you set Beat=1, bar=4, this would be very uncomplicated 4/4 using only quarter.
If you set Beat=4, bar=4, this is also 4/4, but you can play sixteenth note patterns.
If you set Beat=4, bar=5, you are playing in 5/4, and are allowed sixteenth notes again (note that you get 20 sixteenth notes).
If you set Beat=3, bar=4, you get 4/4, but played with a triplet feel.
If you set Beat=6, bar=4, you still have tripleted 4/4, but with more precision.
If you set Beat=4, bar=6, you have 6/4, in straight time.
If you set beat=5, bar=7, you have 7/4, but each of those quarters is divided into quintuplets, which is ideal for playing stravinsky.
If you want to have the feel of something like 2/2, or x/8, then you would be required to adjust the tempo up or down by a factor of 2, and use the equiv x/4 setting.

I do feel that FL in trying to accommodate pattern based programming have really set out a great method to wrong foot anyone trying to learn how time sigs actually work.

If you want to learn, I suggest putting FL to one side for a day or two, and use a sequencer that uses the more traditional approach. When you are happy, go back to FL, then email them saying that you'd like a more straight forward way of dealing with sigs, and can they incorporate it in 7.5

DSP

[VitaminD]

thanks for the explanations.. I'm still a bit confused but I'll think over it more and post any other questions after awhile

If you want to learn, I suggest putting FL to one side for a day or two, and use a sequencer that uses the more traditional approach. When you are happy, go back to FL, then email them saying that you'd like a more straight forward way of dealing with sigs, and can they incorporate it in 7.5

I don't actually use FL Studio as my host, I'm beta testing a plugin (see the effects thread for dtfc) that I'm writing and using the FL Studio Demo as one of my test hosts..

I personally use Orion Platinum.. which only seems to allow a numerator value of 2 4 or 8, so the questions above never cropped up for me..


the main thing I'm concerned with is having someone else try something odd such as 3/5 and then complaining to me that my plugin posts the same values as when they're in 3/4 time.. (since right now I'm ignoring the denominator)

[jancivil]

if you ignore the denominator it is of course the same thing, but 5/4ths faster than n {?}.

Personally i do feel that 'pattern-based' is wrong for anything but rigid music, I'd only work with it to get this odd denominator thing; I can do the math to get that effect in cubase, but there it's x divisions of a 16th and one is up against that, and I'm slow doing it in my head.

five, example given, as a denominator is equivalent to having done a metrical modulation, from pentuplets, the 5:(in the time of four quarters) is the new quarter.

[duncanparsons]

IF this is beat/bar, then 3/5 means 'I've got 5 quarters, and each quarter is cut into 3 bits'. Your plug is interested in the 5, and should report it as 5/4.

IF this is bar/beat, then 3/5 means 'I've got 3 quarters, and each quarter is cut into 5 bits'. Your plug is interested in the 3, and should report it as 3/4. Be aware that FL with spit events every 5th of a quarter at you in this case, rather than every 3rd of a quarter suggested above.

Overall, you are only interested in FL's 'Bar' value.

DSP

[jancivil]

IF this is beat/bar, then 3/5 means 'I've got 5 quarters,

yes.

and each quarter is cut into 3 bits'.

no. it's three of those fifths, before *one* occurs, in terms of measures.

.Your plug is interested in the 5, and should report it as 5/4.

yes.

Overall, you are only interested in FL's 'Bar' value.

which is the real consideration s/he's interested in.

it will be 5/4ths faster compared to <something>, though.

[duncanparsons]

jan, non-power of two 'denominators are outside of std western music, and make little sense. If one needs to subdivide to bizarre values, the way it is done is within the context of std metrical values (x/2,x/4,x/8,etc), but you alter the timing of the notes within the bar.

eg, it is perfectly acceptable to subdivide quarter notes into pentuplets and have 4 lots of them in a bar. That would still be 4/4, but you would hear a possible 20 notes. It might sound like a highly syncopated 5/4, but the way the accent fall would point to pentupletted 4/4.

there is a piece on Philip Glass's 'North Star' album which is played on the organ, it's in 3/4, but the left hand plays 7 notes to the right hands' 8. Must confess it's not very nice, but it is what it is!

DSP

[jancivil]

jan, non-power of two 'denominators are outside of std western music, and make little sense. If one needs to subdivide to bizarre values, the way it is done is within the context of std metrical values (x/2,x/4,x/8,etc), but you alter the timing of the notes within the bar.

eg, it is perfectly acceptable to subdivide quarter notes into pentuplets and have 4 lots of them in a bar. That would still be 4/4, but you would hear a possible 20 notes. It might sound like a highly syncopated 5/4, but the way the accent fall would point to pentupletted 4/4.

there is a piece on Philip Glass's 'North Star' album which is played on the organ, it's in 3/4, but the left hand plays 7 notes to the right hands' 8. Must confess it's not very nice, but it is what it is!

DSP

makes plenty of sense to me. again, it's the very same relationship as you get in a metrical modulation as I described. youre going along with a given basic duration. call it what you will, quarter note is the western convention, and almost nothing is NOTATED outside that accordingly.

OK, your pulse (which is probably in the background in a lot of this music, Elliot Carter for instance) ticks along and the foreground is five against that; this becomes the new pulse, it's 5:4, 5/4ths quicker than where we were before.

we want FOUR of those guys. that's 4/5, same difference, think about it. [in notation, it looks like a quarter note with a '5' over it, and another quarter note after a = sign]

the denominator is always 'bar' the other thing is upside down. numerator is always 'beat'

your sixteenths will divide the denominator, if it is a quarter, into 4 bits. your 20ths will divide the fifth into 4 bits, which I think you get.

[jancivil]

s. It might sound like a highly syncopated 5/4, but the way the accent fall would point to pentupletted 4/4.

there is a piece on Philip Glass's 'North Star' album which is played on the organ, it's in 3/4, but the left hand plays 7 notes to the right hands' 8. Must confess it's not very nice, but it is what it is!

DSP

there is a piece in this month's contest here by one rachmiel which subverts the convention of 156bpm by adding 1+2+3 etc to get 156 notes in a minute that's much worse, if you don't dig that sort of thing

I love 7: an implied pulse of 8, but it is wearing if you're not used to it, when that 8 is explicit.
Glass is pointing to India with this thing, but is culturally not really hip to the groove of it at all.

[bugbug]

Hi

Well Sonar you can do any time signature.

Every time that I ask fruityloops to implement all time signatures ,you get the same old answer.
I like fruity a lot and it is a pity that they cannot understand why you would want it.
My thought is that yes,they want to panda to the one finger electronic merchants----- cut paste sample and copy!!!!!!
Well !!! you can tell that I am getting old and grumpy and stuck in the 70s when music was at its height.Downhill since then!!!!!!!!.
Use Sonar for serious music and Fruit hopefully 8 soon for a sketch pad.
Jarre, Floyd, Camel,Hawkwind, Purple etc timeles gems!!!!!!!!!!!!
I better go the, ol altzeimers is clicking in again.

[duncanparsons]

...it's the very same relationship as you get in a metrical modulation as I described. youre going along with a given basic duration. call it what you will, quarter note is the western convention, and almost nothing is NOTATED outside that accordingly.

OK, your pulse (which is probably in the background in a lot of this music, Elliot Carter for instance) ticks along and the foreground is five against that; this becomes the new pulse, it's 5:4, 5/4ths quicker than where we were before.

we want FOUR of those guys. that's 4/5, same difference, think about it. [in notation, it looks like a quarter note with a '5' over it, and another quarter note after a = sign]

the denominator is always 'bar' the other thing is upside down. numerator is always 'beat'

your sixteenths will divide the denominator, if it is a quarter, into 4 bits. your 20ths will divide the fifth into 4 bits, which I think you get.

Must confess, I disagree. Bar equates to numerator. Its the number of your 'beats' in the bar.

if the 'beat' is set to 5, and the bar is set to 4, you get

Code: Select all

/-5-\ /-5-\ /-5-\ /-5-\
||||| ||||| ||||| |||||
ooooo ooooo ooooo ooooo

which is pentuplets in 4/4.

DSP

[jancivil]

...it's the very same relationship as you get in a metrical modulation as I described. youre going along with a given basic duration. call it what you will, quarter note is the western convention, and almost nothing is NOTATED outside that accordingly.

OK, your pulse (which is probably in the background in a lot of this music, Elliot Carter for instance) ticks along and the foreground is five against that; this becomes the new pulse, it's 5:4, 5/4ths quicker than where we were before.

we want FOUR of those guys. that's 4/5, same difference, think about it. [in notation, it looks like a quarter note with a '5' over it, and another quarter note after a = sign]

the denominator is always 'bar' the other thing is upside down. numerator is always 'beat'

your sixteenths will divide the denominator, if it is a quarter, into 4 bits. your 20ths will divide the fifth into 4 bits, which I think you get.

Must confess, I disagree. Bar equates to numerator. Its the number of your 'beats' in the bar.

if the 'beat' is set to 5, and the bar is set to 4, you get

Code: Select all

/-5-\ /-5-\ /-5-\ /-5-\
||||| ||||| ||||| |||||
ooooo ooooo ooooo ooooo

which is pentuplets in 4/4.

DSP

well it's the same thing, four beats to a bar, vs five beats to a bar I just wanted to indicate to the audience that upside-downing it has no conventional use, and our language isn't clear, accordingly, we don't even disagree. in the metrical modulation scenario, they've flipped. if it's to be in this case four of the 'beats'.

IE: if you call those pentuplets a 'quarter note', and indicate nothing else to your player or your sequencer, you're in 4/5 if a bar is to contain 4/5ths (or 5/4ths cf. the original pulse).

> you have to indicate a difference, by comparison; this is the original poster's problem.

the plug has to compare to a given pulse in the sequencer. by itself, 4/5 has no meaning.

[duncanparsons]

there is a piece in this month's contest here by one rachmiel which subverts the convention of 156bpm by adding 1+2+3 etc to get 156 notes in a minute that's much worse, if you don't dig that sort of thing

I love 7: an implied pulse of 8, but it is wearing if you're not used to it, when that 8 is explicit.
Glass is pointing to India with this thing, but is culturally not really hip to the groove of it at all.

Do remember that tims sig is distinct from tempo. there's allsorts of stuff you can do whilst maintaining a rigid tempo. I teach drums, and was trying to get across to a pupil on monday evening that one can swap back and forth between simple and half time, throw in triplets and pentuplets (yes, I can and do play them) but keep the tempo rock solid, tho there will be apparent time shifts all pver the place.
One can play in 7/8 at 120 bpm, then play a couple of bars in 5/4 all at the same tempo, but each will have very different feel and the changeover can be used for particular effect. Listen to Quark Lepton, that demonstrates precisely that (tho' I can't recall the exact tempo at the mo - but it is totally constant even tho the feel completely changes).

It may be that we agree to differ. (but I'm still right!!)

DSP