KVR Audio

dacaumodo · Post by **dacaumodo** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:27 am

Hi

I get weird issues with pitchwheel and modwheel with Poly-ana in several different hosts on my machine, and this post is to ask if other users of Poly-ana have experienced similar problems. This is a summary of a thread started in the energyXT forum since at first I though it was an eXT problem. Now I don't think it is.

Basically, using pitchwheel and modwheel in Poly-ana result in erratic pitch and modulation behaviour.

For example, in Reaper, letting the pitchwheel go back to center position will not always bring the note back to normal pitch , but to random pitches.
A short midi clip recorded with live pitchwheel action will, on playback, result in unexpected and unpredictable pitch shifts, nothing like what was recorded (this is especially true in energyXT).

In Tracktion 2and energyXT 1.4 and 2 : Poly-ana doesn't seem to receive Modhweel "zero message", ie., still with the same short phrase (two notes: pitch bend full up then back to center on first note, then modwheel on the second note), when I play back what I recorded, if I haven't reached the end of the midi clip before "rewinding" and play from the start again, the first note modulates as if it was receiving modwheel messages, when actually it doesn't (there being no modwheel messages recorded for the first note.)

Pitchwheel function behaves the same, i.e., pitchwheel is erratic when I
"rewind" before reaching the end of the clip (and hence, of the
recorded pitchwheel curve).

It would appear that presets with pitchwheel ranges higher than two semitones are more systematically affected, but I need to confirm this.

I'd be happy to provide you with a Reaper/eXT/T2 test project if you want to test on your own machine. Note, though, that the bug is not systematic and that it sometimes take some repeated tweaking of the wheels (esp. in Tracktion and Reaper) before you notice anything wrong with pitch or modulation behaviour, at least for live playing; the problems when recording are immediately obvious, at least on my machine (Win XP Pro SP2 Athlon Dual Core 1 gig ram).

Lastly, I use a usb midi keyboard: Edirol PCR-M30, I note this just in case, but there doesn't seem to be any problems with other soft synths using the same keyboard.

d

dacaumodo · Post by **dacaumodo** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:54 pm

OK Mike, I've done some more testing today to check that it was not my usb midi keyboard sending random pitchwheel/modhweel messages, and everything seems to be fine on that side, so I guess I'm stuck.

Waiting for good souls to tell us if they have experienced the same problems or not...Otherwise it does sound too much like the problem only happens to me

I love this synth! I just wish I could use the wheels...
cheers

d

kingtubby · Post by **kingtubby** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:49 pm

Well, I just tried it in Reaper and eXT 1 + 2 and don't see the problems you describe.

Mart.

MitchK1989 · Post by **MitchK1989** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:53 pm

have you emailed the developer yet?

I mean, you pay for customer support when you buy a product... Why not use it?

dacaumodo · Post by **dacaumodo** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:49 pm

Thanks, yes of course, Mike is aware of the problem, trying to find an explanation. But it would help to know if other people have problems too.

dacaumodo · Post by **dacaumodo** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:49 pm

kingtubby wrote:Well, I just tried it in Reaper and eXT 1 + 2 and don't see the problems you describe.

Mart.

Thanks Mart. I'm glad it works for you, anyway

kingtubby · Post by **kingtubby** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:01 pm

dacaumodo wrote: Thanks Mart. I'm glad it works for you, anyway

Yes, well, sorry I couldn't help...

Mart.

dacaumodo · Post by **dacaumodo** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:46 pm

Well would you mind testing the following eXT 1.4 project:

http://vimcortez.free.fr/tracks/Polyanatestproject.rar

(146 ko to download)?

Just to see what results you get.

It's just one instance of PA, one note (G3), with pitchbend up one octave then back to zero.
Should be straightforward enough, but the kind of result I get is illustrated by the audio track included, which is just a bounce of my Midi track. When the pitchwheel is back to "neutral" position, I don't get the note I should, ie my initial note, but something random. Whether or not I let the whole clip play before I 'rewind' doesn't make a difference.

I don't think it's a keyboard-related problem otherwise it wouldn't occur when playing back or bouncing (and as far as i can tell, the midi event list shows correct information - last event of the list is 0, that's where the note should go back to 'normal').

Just to make sure I played the clip after having disconnected the master-sequencer midi connection in eXT, and even switched off my keybord for good measure. Same result.

It's driving me slightly nuts.

AdmiralQuality · Post by **AdmiralQuality** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:56 am

Just checking in. We've already been discussing this in another thread and in email, but wanted to take it public to see if anybody else is experiencing this (really, I'd be getting flooded with email if that was the case.)

So, I'm still completely stumped at this point dacaumodo. Do you have another system by any chance? I'd be curious to know how Poly works on that. (I would assume it works fine.)

dacaumodo, if we can't work through this in a reasonable amount of time just let me know and I'll arrange to get you your money back. Part of why I put in the free, one week, fully functioning demo period was to make sure there were never any unsatisfied customers. But in this case, it seems you only experience this bug on playback and not when playing live, while performing? I understand then how you could have missed it, because there's really not supposed to be any diffference with playing live vs playback.

(Oh! Except when played live all MIDI events come in with 0 sampleframes deltas where when played back from sequence, MIDI can be sample accurate. Means the MIDI events always happen "between" process chunks live, but can be set to occur within a process chunk on playback. Hmmmmmmm... will doublecheck that code for sanity ASAP.)

Still working on getting my DAW back up so I can look into this and send you some alternate versions to test. Obviously I can't test it myself if I can't reproduce it, but I do believe you and it *shouldn't* be anything about your hardware. Particularly if 2 playbacks of the same sequence don't sound the same.

Everyone who can test in any of these hosts or any other host for that matter, please chime in. Can ANYONE reproduce this bug?

kingtubby · Post by **kingtubby** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:47 am

dacaumodo wrote:Well would you mind testing the following eXT 1.4 project...

hmmm - ok, I tried it and I do get an occasional wrong note as you say, though the wrong note is always the same i.e. normally it plays G3 pitches up to B3 then back to G3, but occasionally it drops down to E2. The wrong note only plays when I do something like stop/start the sequence or open the poly-ana interface. However, I have tried the exact same test in Reaper and also Podium and they both behave absolutely normally so I'm fairly certain it's something to do with eXT rather than PA...? I dunno, I guess that doesn't help much

Mart.

Edit: I should add that the way that pitch-bend data is displayed in eXT seems a bit odd - the bars start from the base of the automation lane, rather than in a +/- fashion from a centre line, if you see what I mean.

AdmiralQuality · Post by **AdmiralQuality** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:51 am

kingtubby wrote:
dacaumodo wrote:Well would you mind testing the following eXT 1.4 project...
hmmm - ok, I tried it and I do get an occasional wrong note as you say, though the wrong note is always the same i.e. normally it plays G3 pitches up to B3 then back to G3, but occasionally it drops down to E2. The wrong note only plays when I do something like stop/start the sequence or open the poly-ana interface. However, I have tried the exact same test in Reaper and also Podium and they both behave absolutely normally so I'm fairly certain it's something to do with eXT rather than PA...? I dunno, I guess that doesn't help much

Mart.

Hmmmmmmmm. Is there an option in eXT for resetting MIDI controllers on transport start/stop or rewind?

kingtubby · Post by **kingtubby** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:56 am

AdmiralQuality wrote: Hmmmmmmmm. Is there an option in eXT for resetting MIDI controllers on transport start/stop or rewind?

I don't think so, but I'm no eXT expert - I just use it for it's modular capabilities.

Mart.

dacaumodo · Post by **dacaumodo** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:36 am

Hi there,

yes I have another system, haven't yet had the time to test on that (I'll email you when I do. )

I'm quite willing to wait until we find a fix, however long it takes, because this synth is awesome regardless. I have other synths I can use in the meantime,and Poly works fine otherwise.

Actually I do get problems when playing live too, I probably didn't notice when trying out because I was immediately taken by the sound and didn't test extensively.
Another thing that happens is that, when playing live, the modwheel value (and its effect) displayed on the top of the GUI doesn't go back to zero even when I let the modwheel go back to zero position. It settles on unpredictable, seemingly random values.
Something similar happens with the pitchwheel, but then again, not always, it's maddeningly unpredictable.

AdmiralQuality wrote: (Oh! Except when played live all MIDI events come in with 0 sampleframes deltas where when played back from sequence, MIDI can be sample accurate. Means the MIDI events always happen "between" process chunks live, but can be set to occur within a process chunk on playback. Hmmmmmmm... will doublecheck that code for sanity ASAP.)

I don't quite understand this,but let me know if it requires more testing onmy part.

AdmiralQuality wrote: Still working on getting my DAW back up so I can look into this and send you some alternate versions to test. Obviously I can't test it myself if I can't reproduce it, but I do believe you and it *shouldn't* be anything about your hardware. Particularly if 2 playbacks of the same sequence don't sound the same.

Everyone who can test in any of these hosts or any other host for that matter, please chime in. Can ANYONE reproduce this bug?

Cheers Mike, hope we can find a fix without too much bother. Like I said, I'm quite willing to wait (can't do much more now, having tried everything I can think of), the synth is well worth it.

cheers

d

dacaumodo · Post by **dacaumodo** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:37 am

Oh, and thanks for testing,Mart.

MitchK1989 · Post by **MitchK1989** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:14 pm

can you borrow a different midi controller and try that?

what midi controller are you using?

Poly-ana: pitchwheel problems?: FIXED!